blue_neon

Yeh like everyones been saying, i'm NEVER going back to v-brakes from Hydro's. Mine have just worn in (eventually) and they are amazing.

Compaing V-Brakes to Hydraullic Disks:

+1 Hydro's for modulation, you can't get that on v-brakes
+1 for Hydro's for adjustability, they basically dont need adjustment, they partly 'adjust themselves' and if they do need it it is so friggen easy.
+1 for Hydro's you can ride on a buckled wheel.
+1 for Hydro's better in all weather conditions.

mx_599

+1 adjustability, if this was the only benefit...it would be worth it for me

+1 the girls are always turning their heads when i go by. i think they are looking at my disc brakes

cyccommute 

In your dreams My experience over many years of riding is that girls are always turning their heads when a cyclist goes by...usually the other way. They are either laughing at the silly outfit or gagging because of the silly outfit

So dream on.

cyccommute 

I have a life...until I get stuck in the white room weighing gnat crap

It's a data point...1...through which can be drawn an infinite number of straight lines. It could show a trend but there are a number of factors that need to be considered.

1. A Trek 3900 is a low end bike with low end brakes. I don't know what Hayes system CrashVector is using nor do I know what brakes the Trek is using but are we comparing apples to apples here? I'd like to see a comparison to a high end Avid or Shimano linear brake.

2. Tires could have a large effect on braking ability on pavement as brake style.
2a. I get the impression this may have been a skidding stop. If so, then tire composition comes into play.

3. Placebo effect. Not to question CrashVector ability but is he as willing to haul down the Trek from 25 mph to zero as hard as the Kona. It's his wife's bike after all and may not be set up for himas well as the Kona is. He may not even be thinking of that but he may be biasing the test. That's why scientist do controls and double blinds. It's difficult to do blind tests with brakes

I think CrashVector and I are in far more agreement than many might think. He agrees with me that the fabled modulation of disc is oversold. I agree with him that there are situations where discs are better than linear brakes. If you ride where it is wet a lot, then discs are probably a good choice. I ride in the semiarid west and I seldom ride in rain. If I were upgrading a bike, I would upgrade wheels, transmission and controls before I'd put on discs. They just aren't on my short list of things that are absolutely needed.

That said, if a bike comes with them, it's not a deal breaker. I'd rather not have them because of the extra cost and the extra hassle of having to learn how to deal with a new system so that I can maintain them.

There are also other issues that I don't like dealing with when there are discs on a bike. Since I ride long rides in the Colorado mountains I have to be prepared for conditions that you find at 5000 to 7000 feet up to 14,000 feet. You can start a ride at 90 F and find yourself in the middle of a summer snowstorm with temps around 30F. You need to be prepared for that kind of situation. You can't really carry extra clothes and other gear in a CamelBak. Bikes with discs (and many other bikes as well) aren't meant to be anything other than a racer wannabees so the manufacturers have taken off the niceties like rack mounts because they have to make every moderate to high end bike disc ready. So you end up with band-aid solutions like post mounted racks or other Rube Goldberg devices - none of which works as well as a good old fashioned dropout mounted bike rack!

So mx_599, ask and ye shall receive! ...Especially when I'm in the white room weighing gnat crap!

Hank Rearden

What planet do you live on?? I have been carrying extra clothes and other gear in Camelbaks (Deuters, etc.) for years. I have ridden with many other people that do the same thing. To claim that you can't carry clothes/gear ina backpack that is design for just that purpose is ludicrous.

I have absolutely no desire to carry extra clothes/gear on a bike mounted rack when I can carry the same gear on my back while not compromising the bike's handling (like racks do).

"racer wannabees? because they lack eyelets? Wow.

At this point you're so far out in left field that you can't even see the field anymore.

ed 

Well, I don't know if I'm going to help shed light on the question at hand or just add more babble, but let me share my experience with the two styles of brakes in a trail application:

I'm an aggressive trail mountain biker that loves singletrack, jumping, and romantic urban assault by moonlight, and I have two bikes:

Bike 1-Aluminum Hardtail / Pretty decent Shimano V-Brakes / Aftermarket pads
Bike 2-Aluminum Hardtail / Avid Juicy five's / aftermarket pads

I have a section burned into my memory on my local trail that I usually ride at approximately 20-25mph. It is mildly twisty (not too much at that speed) with a few small stumps to hop over and ends on a 35-45 degree descent that is loose, rocky, and short. I usually want to do this short rocky descent (with a switchback at the bottom btw) at a low speed so I don't miss the turn at the bottom. This involves me killing my 25mph momentum before I get there.

I have ridden this section numerous times on both bikes and I never think "Will I be able to slow down in time?" with bike 2. On bike 1 however, I am never riding at my 'peak enjoyment level' if you will, because I have to keep my speed in check so I can slow down in time. This is with one finger on discs versus two fingers on my V's. (yes it took me a while to get used to one finger too, but there's no other way...and I love it)

Obviously this example doesn't apply to a touring bike b/c it's two different styles of riding and enjoyment. I can tell you however that I have had V-Brakes (or linear-pull brakes, depending on your "PC" terminology) from several manufacturers over several years and none of them are as "smooth" at the lever, maintenance friendly, powerful, and confidance building as my Juicy Five's. Comparing modulation of the two in this setting really doesn't matter quite as much because unless you're doing nose wheelies trying to finely balance your bike with a feather touch of the lever, you can modulate either set of my brakes well enough to negotiate the trails w/o skidding out of control. (BTW modulation is better with my discs than my V's)

That said, I have never owned another set of discs and I don't know how they compare to others. I read alot of articles in magazines that praise a few other brands of Hydraulic Disc brakes.

I am kind of a "tech geek" when it comes to my bike being set up right, free of any foreign noises, and smoothness of operation of cable (or fluid) actuated mechanisms. I can't get over how smooth the hydro's are at the lever compared to a very nice set of properly lubed cable actuated brakes.

For my style of aggressive trail / jump / urban riding, I would always choose hydraulic discs over linear pull rim brakes any day of the week given my experiences.

Bottom line I guess is...if you have a buddy that has a nice set of discs that are broken in, see if you can try them out. If you live in Topeka KS, you can try mine out.

One more thing, in the May 2006 issue of MBAction, there is an article called "Make your rim brakes work like discs." It is a "how to" upgrade involving Kool-Stop's Tectonic Interchangeable Compound Technology and Nokon's compressionless brake housing. These are people who are paid to ride, review, and know bikes inside-out and they feel that discs are superior than linear's.

Not that their word is 'Gospel', but it's just another opinion.

Sorry 'bout the length of my post, have a nice day!

ed 

Ya know, after that long friggin' post I just left I re-read the origional poster's question. This thread is about modulation not stopping power. I don't know how so many of us got off on stopping power, I apologize.

Either way, my discs modulate better. You just have to train your fingers to not pull so hard. If you've used linear's or canti's for several years, it's going to be hard to back off and fine-tune your motor skills to use lighter touch versus a two fingered "Vulcan Death Grip".

DonValley

Interesting where the thread has gone. I suppose a nice real world solution would be to have a 1 finger disc up front and a traditional V brake out back.

cyccommute 

Did I inadvertantly call you a bad name? Or are you just having a bad day and decided to take it out on someone?

I have no idea where you ride at Mr. Rearden but do your rides have to cover a temperature range of 70 F? Ever had a ride that started on a nice sunny day and ended on a good strong Colorado upslope with driving rain, fog and temperatures hovering around freezing? Where it is nice and sunny and rather mild on one side of a pass and your car is 30 cold, miserable, wet, possibly deadly miles away? In July?! Wanna be caught in shorts and a t-shirt in that? We have a name for those kinds of people in Colorado. We call them corpses.

I have. I've done rides where I ended on the very edge of hypothermia where 15 or 20 minutes of shivering under a blanket was barely enough to get me out of it. Can you carry long gloves, rain gear (pants and jacket), long sleeve jersey, tights, light jacket, tools, food and water for a 60 mile ride in your backpack and still be comfortable? I can't nor do I want to. Let the bike take some of that load.

So you have no desire to carry extra stuff in a bag on your bike. Well bully for you. And because you don't want to means that I don't need to? Just because you might like having your load hit you in the back of the head everytime you go over a drop, I guess I'll just have to make a scrafice because Mr. Rearden says that I have to. Just because Mr. Rearden says that it comprimises the bike's handling, I'll have to do without racks on my bikes eventhough I've never noticed it before even when I've carried 50+ pound loads over weeks and weeks.

You may be satified with the way bikes are built but I'm not! Does it hurt your riding if the bike makers were to add things like rack eyelets to bikes? Does it hurt your image if I am freddish enough to put a rack on my bikes? Do you really want to be like roadies where fashion and style outweigh function? Do you really want to be a poser?

ed 

Ouch!!! They should have a "cyberboxing ring" for y'all.

I think if I were a commuter, I would probably have v-brakes as well, but just for cost-effectivness. I'd love to have a bike with a couple of racks and pannier's on it so I could throw a bunch'a crap in it and go. If I could afford that and incorporate hydraulic discs, I would. I wouldn't consider discs a "necessity" on a bike that was targeted for such things. That's just not where my own passion lies. I'm more of an "All Mountain/XC" thrill seaker minus the Bender-jumps. So if money wasn't a factor, I'd still do Hydraulic discs on a commuter bike because of the cruddy weather factor, but I tend to spend my money on bikes that are PC-labeled "All Mountain" and are able to handle small'ish drops, jumps, descents, and still climb fairly well on singletrack.

cyccommute 

More power to you! I like to ride in remote areas a long ways from services so I have to be rather self-sufficient both for mountain biking and touring. I don't really do that much "fooling around" when I ride (drops, jumps, etc.) because help can be hours away. I have a favorite ride that starts 25 miles from the nearest residence and goes out 10 more miles from there. Plus you not only have to carry food and water (much more than a mountain ride), you also have to carry shoes to get across the river with. If you don't carry shoes to get across the river to see the dinosaur tracks, there no sense in going into the canyon. If you fall and break something important out there, you could be there for a very long while before help arrives.

I have another ride that starts at around 8000 feet goes to 11,600 then goes before going to a town 30 miles from the start and then you come back... all in one day! That's where I got caught in a nasty summer storm. The road actually splits down the middle of a wilderness area. 100 yards in either direction is wilderness. Not a lot of places to get anything other than water out there, so I end up carrying a lot of stuff. And I'd prefer not having to carry 20 lbs of gear, food and water on my back. It gets old after 6 or 7 hours...and at that point you still have 2 or 3 hours of riding left

Different strokes.

cyccommute 

This is what I have been saying about discs and my problem with people saying that they have superior modulation. They have superior power, not modulation. You have modulated your application of them by reducing your strength of application (as have I. I'm really not so klutzy that I've thrown myself on my head ). I find myself actually riding my disc brake equipped bike with less temerity than my V-brake equiped bike. I know the stopping distance and speed control of v-brake bike. I really have to think about the disc bike or I end up too short and have to pick up speed or too long and have to scrub it off in a hurry. I just don't feel as "fluid" on the disc bike.

mx_599

you're over analyzing it. we're not looking to publish or anything...but if you do i want to co-author.

i was pulling X's and #'s out of my a$$ when i mentioned the X/2X thing! you took it too literally. however, hammering down a hill and braking at that last possible moment...i'd rather have calipers and rotors-- not silly little rubber forceps haphazardly clamping my rim

i would rather have a perfectly true, clean rim without the hideous markings of rubber pad shoe things that aren't even toed correctly after like 19 feet of riding.

since you ride in such ambiguous conditions, discs might be a boon to you as well. they are far more reliable in a broader range of temperatures and conditions.

...but good luck with your rim brakes

mx_599

disc brakes are the ideal set-up for touring bikes as well. you don't see Goldwings with drums...do you? the problem is the age bracket of those primarily involved with touring are not conducive to change

cyccommute 

I doubt that they'll be a boon but I'll probably be drug kicking and screaming into having to live with them just like I was drug kick and screaming into accepting Shimano over Suntour (Suntour was funky but at least it wasn't Shimano), Rapid fire over thumbies (which are still superior), front suspension over rigid (front suspension wins hands down), clipless over toe clips (clipless wins but there are days...), linear brakes over cantilever (linear wins as long as they aren't squeeeeeeeeeeaaaaaaalllly Shimano), dual suspension over hardtail (jury is still out on that one), tubless vs tube tires (never gonna happen ), and disc over rim brakes (one never knows )

I've been riding since before that antique you ride was cutting edge so I have a right to be crotchty! Dang kids! Get off my lawn before I call the cops!

cyccommute 

Goldwings don't depend on the strength of their wheels as much as touring bicycles do. When you add discs to the front and back wheels of a touring bike you are steepening the angle of attack on the rear, essentially adding a dish to both sides of the wheel and you are adding dish to the front wheel where it hasn't had any before. This weakens both wheelsets, making them more prone to spoke breakage which is the bane of any cycling tourist! It's not that we cycling tourist don't like high tech stuff, we just don't like to fix it in the middle of nowhere with a rock, a piece of bailing wire and spit! Just because we can do it doesn't mean we have to like it.

Touring bikes aready have discs anyway. The rotors are just a little bigger.

mx_599

what it boils down to is my heavy motocycle racing back ground, anyway i can make my pedal bike more like the good ol' days i jump at it. whether it be an improvement or not. i am used to slamming on my brakes at the last moment and usually attemt tp ride that way on my weak XC outings

Emory

On the breaking power thing:
If both sets of breaks can raise your rear wheel off the ground, which I hope they can because I know my no name vbreaks that came with my bike that costs less then a hydro set up can, then how can disc breaks have more power? As long as both can lock a wheel, they both are optimal.

Though, I cant say I have tried to lock my front wheel when moving down hill at 25mph in a muddy deluge.

asterisk

Well, not to drag this up after too long, but how often do you really worry about how fast you're stopping? Personally, I tend to ride trails slow and technically. Rarely does it matter if I can come to a complete and full stop over 10 to 20ft.

Whats more important is that when I apply the brake, I should feel comfortible and in control of what I'm doing.

ed 

I think that's where I was headed with my short story that I posted earlier...with my V-brake bike, I have to conciously think about braking and give it a bit of effort. Sure, I can lock em up if I yank REAL hard, but when I ride the same section on my Hydro bike, I just don't even think about braking...I feel much more comfortable and fluid. I know that I can have a ball bombing through a section knowing I can stop for a walker if need be. When I ride comfortably, my overall riding experience is positive instead of labored.

Really though, I don't think that this thread was started to verify stopping power. (which is where it went) The origional poster asked about modulation...which I still feel is owned by hydraulic disc brakes.

Ya know I think it kinda goes this way:
If you got a V-brake with ample power, it's probably gonna be grabby. If it has ample modulation, it's gonna be kinda weak.

Hydraulic disc brakes have the best of both. Ample modulation with gobs of power.

mx_599

not me... many times i need to stop ASAP. it is all in the riding style. you can make a flat trial like that if you want to

mx_599

attn:

those who think this thread got off topic should read the OP original questions. everything in this thread is VERY relevant

you cannot go by just the thread title

ZachS

dude, what the hell does your 'heavy motocycle [sic] racing back ground [sic]" have to do with this? he has a 'heavy' BICYCLE TOURING BACKGROUND.

i don't, but i still think discs on a touring bike is a completely ridiculous and stupid idea.

mx_599

nothing...i just felt compelled to mention it on this public forum. why are you so grouchy?

my point was that i tend to be on and off my brakes hard. rim brakes wouldn't cut it. i also ride with one finger. it would be silly to use all fingers on a rim brake, i just wouldn't feel secure

discs on a touring bike is a wondrous idea, you just do not realize it yet. open your mind....

Bedminster

My experience is limited to linear pulls and riding w/others w/hydraulics.
Modulation to me infers an ability to control the degree of braking. My experience is that the hydraulic guys seem to eat up the trails as they lock up.
I have yet to get out on my new ceramic rims w/linear pulls. My expectation is they should be even better. I will report after I get out on them. (Too many coaching responsiblities currently)
BTW, anyone else using linear pulls w/ceramic rims?