Roadie's probable recklessness leaves a woman brain dead
09-19-14, 05:01 PM
#176
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I don't think about things like this. If it happens to me, it happens and I'll deal. Shame on you for bringing up hypotheticals about my loved ones getting killed.
We don't know if the guy was riding with caution or aggression.
Even if the guy is riding with caution, there is a non-zero chance a collision might occur.
Yes, an English university student on vacation said he was going fast (most cyclists traveling in the "car" lanes do go fast relative to pedestrians). Yes, his "pal" stated he didn't seem to slow down (so did the police officer when I was 17 and rear-ended a guy; I had the brake pedal pushed to the floor though... wheeled vehicles don't look like they are stopping if there's no accompanying melodramatic brake squeal/tires smoking).
Notice I have made exactly zero statements of fact about this incident. Except for two which are self-evident: 1) A pedestrian and a cyclist at speed collided and 2) the pedestrian had a head injury and died. I am sorry someone died. I'm not going to speculate about how the cyclist was stupid, a moron, evil, should be jailed, a Strava junkie, irrational, negligent, criminal... as an expression of sympathy. These are weighty concepts not to be tossed around lightly. That is all I am talking about.
People want it to be true that the cyclist was a dick, irresponsible, a moron, criminal, for two reasons: 1) it sets the world to rights because a lady got killed and so there must be a bad guy to take the blame for the tragedy, and 2) if the cyclist was a dick, it means all us other self-proclaimed non-dicks are safe from ever being in this situation. Comforting thoughts both, but patently untrue.
We don't know if the guy was riding with caution or aggression.
Even if the guy is riding with caution, there is a non-zero chance a collision might occur.
Yes, an English university student on vacation said he was going fast (most cyclists traveling in the "car" lanes do go fast relative to pedestrians). Yes, his "pal" stated he didn't seem to slow down (so did the police officer when I was 17 and rear-ended a guy; I had the brake pedal pushed to the floor though... wheeled vehicles don't look like they are stopping if there's no accompanying melodramatic brake squeal/tires smoking).
Notice I have made exactly zero statements of fact about this incident. Except for two which are self-evident: 1) A pedestrian and a cyclist at speed collided and 2) the pedestrian had a head injury and died. I am sorry someone died. I'm not going to speculate about how the cyclist was stupid, a moron, evil, should be jailed, a Strava junkie, irrational, negligent, criminal... as an expression of sympathy. These are weighty concepts not to be tossed around lightly. That is all I am talking about.
People want it to be true that the cyclist was a dick, irresponsible, a moron, criminal, for two reasons: 1) it sets the world to rights because a lady got killed and so there must be a bad guy to take the blame for the tragedy, and 2) if the cyclist was a dick, it means all us other self-proclaimed non-dicks are safe from ever being in this situation. Comforting thoughts both, but patently untrue.
Here's a news flash as some guys wouldn't know the truth if it ran them over. Not saying that is you. By all accounts, so far, the guy was riding too fast for his environment and it went wrong. Here's another news flash. Probably 100-1000 guys were out on their road bikes today riding too fast for their environment and got away with it without killing anybody. This guy wasn't so lucky and 'if' in the wrong and yes unproven, he should pay for it.
09-19-14, 05:01 PM
#177
Senior Member
My point is it's not a caveat if it makes the rule.
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09-19-14, 05:04 PM
#178
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Another poster, me, is saying that it's not that simple. I've certainly been comfortable enough with the level of traffic, the road width and sight lines to have bombed down that stretch more than a time or two. Yes, there are times to dial it back, but there are also times when opening it up isn't unreasonable. I realize that a less nuanced view suits your agenda a little more neatly, but it's just not so black and white.
09-19-14, 05:05 PM
#179
Senior Member
Probably your best post yet so at least you are making progress.
Here's a news flash as some guys wouldn't know the truth if it ran them over. Not saying that is you. By all accounts, so far, the guy was riding too fast for his environment and it went wrong. Here's another news flash. Probably 100-1000 guys were out on their road bikes today riding too fast for their environment and got away with it without killing anybody. This guy wasn't so lucky and 'if' in the wrong and yes unproven, he should pay for it.
Here's a news flash as some guys wouldn't know the truth if it ran them over. Not saying that is you. By all accounts, so far, the guy was riding too fast for his environment and it went wrong. Here's another news flash. Probably 100-1000 guys were out on their road bikes today riding too fast for their environment and got away with it without killing anybody. This guy wasn't so lucky and 'if' in the wrong and yes unproven, he should pay for it.
__________________
Cat 2 Track, Cat 3 Road.
"If you’re new enough [to racing] that you would ask such question, then i would hazard a guess that if you just made up a workout that sounded hard to do, and did it, you’d probably get faster." --the tiniest sprinter
Cat 2 Track, Cat 3 Road.
"If you’re new enough [to racing] that you would ask such question, then i would hazard a guess that if you just made up a workout that sounded hard to do, and did it, you’d probably get faster." --the tiniest sprinter
09-19-14, 05:06 PM
#180
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I'm not saying it's her "fault" at all. But she's now in a bad situation due to a confluence of a number of factors.
09-19-14, 05:07 PM
#181
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Another poster, me, is saying that it's not that simple. I've certainly been comfortable enough with the level of traffic, the road width and sight lines to have bombed down that stretch more than a time or two. Yes, there are times to dial it back, but there are also times when opening it up isn't unreasonable. I realize that a less nuanced view suits your agenda a little more neatly, but it's just not so black and white.
09-19-14, 05:08 PM
#182
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I ride CP 4-5 days a week since 1999 and have close calls all the time. Just right after this accident a cab went into the bike lane to avoid a horse carriage and almost hit me. There's literally some kind of accident everyday here. Everyone's to blame for these things... pedestrians, people on roller blades, joggers, cyclist, cars, horse carriages etc. very few people actually follow the street lights/signs.
09-19-14, 05:08 PM
#183
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Of course there are reckless people out there. Just remember that when you make statistics, you throw out huge amounts of information; you can characterize a population but there is no way to extrapolate back down from a statistic to the individual. Yes, the average rider might be traveling too fast (though, still, if this were a car - and he was in the travel lane at the time - would we still be talking about "too fast"?), but that doesn't say anything about how this particular fellow was acting. Sometimes in life, the 99 reckless people get away with it and the one do-gooder gets btch-slapped by fate.
09-19-14, 05:11 PM
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09-19-14, 05:20 PM
#187
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I'm nearly 70. I still love to get on my bike and chase the wind. I've been doing it since 1983 when I gave up my running shoes for wheels. I realize that I am operating a piece of equipment that utilizes the wheel and gearing that greatly enhances the speed I could attain without it. It can turn my body into a missile traveling at 40mph. If I hit something or someone at that speed either I or someone else is going to suffer possible injury or death. If I meet my demise in a crash then I can say I went out on my shield and so be it. I'll take that as part of the territory and be happy. Don't weep for me. But I want to do no harm to others on foot who may be in my path so I take pains to ride where few on foot would be in my path and if I see one of the few I make adjustments for their safety. The rest of the world does not need to step aside just because I am riding a bicycle. If you are using shared real estate with the public you have no business going like a bat out of hell just because you can. Carry on.
09-19-14, 05:24 PM
#188
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I'm nearly 70. I still love to get on my bike and chase the wind. I've been doing it since 1983 when I gave up my running shoes for wheels. I realize that I am operating a piece of equipment that utilizes the wheel and gearing that greatly enhances the speed I could attain without it. It can turn my body into a missile traveling at 40mph. If I hit something or someone at that speed either I or someone else is going to suffer possible injury or death. If I meet my demise in a crash then I can say I went out on my shield and so be it. I'll take that as part of the territory and be happy. Don't weep for me. But I want to do no harm to others on foot who may be in my path so I take pains to ride where few on foot would be in my path and if I see one of the few I make adjustments for their safety. The rest of the world does not need to step aside just because I am riding a bicycle. If you are using shared real estate with the public you have no business going like a bat out of hell just because you can. Carry on.
I grew up building muscle cars and fast motorcycles. I probably shouldn't be here...or don't deserve to be with how I have ridden and raced. I have ridden my bicycle too fast where I shouldn't and all vehicles really. I am much more safety conscious as an older rider and am very grateful I never hurt anybody.
Last edited by Campag4life; 09-19-14 at 05:28 PM.
09-19-14, 05:25 PM
#189
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Aren't you the guy preaching about it not being a perfect world ? Have you ever served on a jury ? Why is it so wrong to take what is given (a description of a particular behavior or set of behaviors), and to express an opinion on the suitability of it ?
I'm really curious here, more than about the incident itself, which will resolve without my help.
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09-19-14, 05:26 PM
#190
You gonna eat that?
In general when I hear about stuff like this I put myself in the cyclist's shorts and think to myself, was this avoidable? If it were me, what could I have done to prevent it? In similar situations, what should I do? The answer is obvious - if there's a lot of traffic, a lot of pedestrians, go slower so that if the unexpected happens I have time to react. He may not be guilty of a crime, but he was probably guilty of bad judgment. (As was the woman.)
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I stop for people / whose right of way I honor / but not for no one.
Originally Posted by bragi 
"However, it's never a good idea to overgeneralize."
I stop for people / whose right of way I honor / but not for no one.
Originally Posted by bragi "However, it's never a good idea to overgeneralize."
09-19-14, 05:27 PM
#191
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09-19-14, 05:28 PM
#192
You gonna eat that?
Boy, you have a chip on your shoulder. Get laid or have a beer or something.
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I stop for people / whose right of way I honor / but not for no one.
Originally Posted by bragi "However, it's never a good idea to overgeneralize."
I stop for people / whose right of way I honor / but not for no one.
Originally Posted by bragi "However, it's never a good idea to overgeneralize."
09-19-14, 05:32 PM
#193
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09-19-14, 05:34 PM
#194
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...I've actually been in conversations like this before on teh Biekforums. "Shouldn't judge, only yer opinion, facts aren't in, ought to be left to the perfessionals. etc."
Aren't you the guy preaching about it not being a perfect world ? Have you ever served on a jury ? Why is it so wrong to take what is given (a description of a particular behavior or set of behaviors), and to express an opinion on the suitability of it ?
I'm really curious here, more than about the incident itself, which will resolve without my help.
Aren't you the guy preaching about it not being a perfect world ? Have you ever served on a jury ? Why is it so wrong to take what is given (a description of a particular behavior or set of behaviors), and to express an opinion on the suitability of it ?
I'm really curious here, more than about the incident itself, which will resolve without my help.
Now, taking a "given" and expressing an opinion about it is fine, as long as you indicate you are speaking about hypotheticals inspired by the news report. That's fine; just that expressing the opinion that "...going too fast for conditions and running into and killing an innocent pedestrian is bad..." is not a terribly interesting or enlightening opinion to talk about.
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Cat 2 Track, Cat 3 Road.
"If you’re new enough [to racing] that you would ask such question, then i would hazard a guess that if you just made up a workout that sounded hard to do, and did it, you’d probably get faster." --the tiniest sprinter
Cat 2 Track, Cat 3 Road.
"If you’re new enough [to racing] that you would ask such question, then i would hazard a guess that if you just made up a workout that sounded hard to do, and did it, you’d probably get faster." --the tiniest sprinter
09-19-14, 05:34 PM
#195
You gonna eat that?
The comments in this thread is not what ruined this guy's life. It was him hitting and seriously injuring another person, even if he was totally not at fault. There's no reason to worry about his feelings in this thread.
__________________
I stop for people / whose right of way I honor / but not for no one.
Originally Posted by bragi "However, it's never a good idea to overgeneralize."
I stop for people / whose right of way I honor / but not for no one.
Originally Posted by bragi "However, it's never a good idea to overgeneralize."
09-19-14, 05:36 PM
#196
Senior Member
That is pretty much the definition of "20-20 hindsight", isn't it?
__________________
Cat 2 Track, Cat 3 Road.
"If you’re new enough [to racing] that you would ask such question, then i would hazard a guess that if you just made up a workout that sounded hard to do, and did it, you’d probably get faster." --the tiniest sprinter
Cat 2 Track, Cat 3 Road.
"If you’re new enough [to racing] that you would ask such question, then i would hazard a guess that if you just made up a workout that sounded hard to do, and did it, you’d probably get faster." --the tiniest sprinter
09-19-14, 05:39 PM
#197
Senior Member
If you say so. You're the one with the chicken on your head.
__________________
Cat 2 Track, Cat 3 Road.
"If you’re new enough [to racing] that you would ask such question, then i would hazard a guess that if you just made up a workout that sounded hard to do, and did it, you’d probably get faster." --the tiniest sprinter
Cat 2 Track, Cat 3 Road.
"If you’re new enough [to racing] that you would ask such question, then i would hazard a guess that if you just made up a workout that sounded hard to do, and did it, you’d probably get faster." --the tiniest sprinter
09-19-14, 05:39 PM
#198
You gonna eat that?
If that's how you feel, why are your panties in such a knot?
__________________
I stop for people / whose right of way I honor / but not for no one.
Originally Posted by bragi "However, it's never a good idea to overgeneralize."
I stop for people / whose right of way I honor / but not for no one.
Originally Posted by bragi "However, it's never a good idea to overgeneralize."
09-19-14, 05:41 PM
#199
Senior Member
Righty O. Your wish is my command. I'm off to get laid and have a beer. See ya all. Sleep well with your comforting stories of crime and punishments.
__________________
Cat 2 Track, Cat 3 Road.
"If you’re new enough [to racing] that you would ask such question, then i would hazard a guess that if you just made up a workout that sounded hard to do, and did it, you’d probably get faster." --the tiniest sprinter
Cat 2 Track, Cat 3 Road.
"If you’re new enough [to racing] that you would ask such question, then i would hazard a guess that if you just made up a workout that sounded hard to do, and did it, you’d probably get faster." --the tiniest sprinter
09-19-14, 05:41 PM
#200
You gonna eat that?
Gawd, can't you even detect sarcasm??
__________________
I stop for people / whose right of way I honor / but not for no one.
Originally Posted by bragi "However, it's never a good idea to overgeneralize."
I stop for people / whose right of way I honor / but not for no one.
Originally Posted by bragi "However, it's never a good idea to overgeneralize."