Campag4life

I wonder if Dave is going to suffer the same fate as poor ol' Charlie?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MbtkL5_f6-4

Bob Dopolina 

That means your spoke tension was too high.

User error.

rpenmanparker 

Of course you are right, Bob, but that is part of what Dave is talking about. He thinks he can't build a 10 or 11-
speed hub without super high DS tensions. He isn't happy with 60 kgF on the NDS. We make our own problems.

hueyhoolihan

if some people didn't insist on measuring everything it wouldn't be a problem. sometimes it's best not to know...

Dave Mayer

Wisdom comes from knowing the numbers. So I calculated how much was the ratio between drive and non-drive side spokes under 2 cases:

1. Severely challenged limits placed on wheel design due to excessively wide 11-speed freehub
2. Narrower freehub from 7-speed era.

The results are that the 7-speed freehub non-drive spokes are 60% of the tension of the drive side. Not good, but workable. 100% is ideal. The distance between flanges is just over 60mm. Again, the ideal result for a stiff wheel is as wide as possible.

In contrast, the extreme dimensional constraints placed on the 11-speed wheel result in a drive to non-drive side tension ratio of 47%. The flanges have to be shrunk to 50mm. Floppy and unstable wheel. Don't let salesman convince you otherwise.

This is why special technologies have to be applied to make 11-speed wheels possible. This is expensive. This is why my pal, who just broke a spoke on his new 11-speed wheel has been chasing through every bike shop in town trying to find a highly custom spoke.

Recommendations of the shops: buy a new wheel. They say that the rest of the spokes will follow in short order anyway.
He has a Campy freehub. To make the search for a new wheel easier, he has decided to go with a Shimano 11-speed freehub and cassette. Recommendations of the shop: it won't work. They won't stand by it, or service it.

Isn't 11-speed great business?

rpenmanparker 

It isn't about percentages being important. It is about absolute tensions. If you go to 130 kgf on the DS, you will exceed 60 kgf on the NDS. That is not too high on the DS and not too low on the DS. Where is the problem? We are not responsible for folks who buy wheels built with stupid esoteric components, and we haven't been advocating those. There are no special technologies at play in Novatec or BHS hubs and Kinlin rims. Put some together with enough tension on the DS to get 60 kgF on the NDS. Don't overthink about whatever the numbers are. Just do it. Then tell us about how impossible it was.

Man I love my floppy, unstable wheels.

BoSoxYacht

The hubs I use for my wheels have 55mm of flange spacing with a larger DS flange, and they use standard spokes. It is not floppy or unstable.

What is this about your friend going with a Shimano freehub+cassette? A Shimano 11 speed wheel will work fine with a Campagnolo drivetrain.

BTW, ANSWER MY QUESTION ABOUT YOUR 7SPD WHEELSET WEIGHT.

Edonis13

I wonder if he will ever answer these questions. His avoidance of them has piqued my interest.

Dave Mayer

This spoke tension differential is too high if I want lightweight (300g) rims.
If I was willing to add 200g per wheel for beefy rims to make up for the deficiencies in the wheel design, this might work. But there is no need to do this.

Dave Mayer

Just over 15 pounds. 950 gram carbon frameset and matching 300g fork. Carbon crankset, post, bars etc. Light wheels too. If I went to 11-speed, I would have to add a significant amount of weight on the wheels, where is causes the most negatives.

BoSoxYacht

this is built with 7spd? How about the wheelset weight?

RollCNY

You could save some weight by converting to SS, and then you would have exact match spoke tensions. You would have to settle for none of the limitations of asymmetric hubs perpetrated in the 1950's.

rpenmanparker 

You keep saying that in the face of evidence to the contrary. I think you mean 30 year old, 300 gram rims. What's that about?

Fred Smedley

Their is a lot to be gained from modern 440-480 gram rims that far out weigh the deficiencies of a 300 gram dino-rim. But if your happy , rollem if you havem

Brian Ratliff

incorrect.

rpenmanparker 

Totally imaginary.

Bah Humbug

Still avoiding the question, I see.

Bah Humbug

"Highly custom spokes" are a hallmark of the factory wheels you proclaim to love. How hard is it to find a Sapim CX-Ray? All my wheels (well, "both", plus my girlfriend's one) that are 11-speed compatible use those. They're bog-standard and widely available online, though I can't tell you if they're in the shops in your area. I actually can't tell you if they're at the shops in my area either, honestly, because none of my 11-speed compatible wheels has needed more than a minor truing.

sleepy

This such a long and boring thread.

As a guy who was gung-ho for DT shifters until I saw how annoying it was to acquire them, and the fack that cost for STI's has trickled down, I'd like to hear some folks extol the benefits of the new Sora and Claris groups, or if Tiagra is a reliable 10 speed option. Not some butt-boring talk about Flanges and wheel offsets, or some dude talking about y'all suckaz for not riding the new 11 speed.
Which is funny to hear. Was it awful back when we just had 10 speeds? or 9? 8?

Bandera

When we had 5 cog set-ups the people who enjoyed cycling rode their bikes and got around somehow.
Those who were interested in Performance like my teammates adopted 6,7,8,9,10 and now 11 for the same reason: adequate low & high ranges and tighter steps in between for efficiency.

At any point, like my 1950's tech town bike, one can say: "Good Enough" and stay w/ that spec for just about ever.
And that's the technical history of the sport.

-Bandera

Bah Humbug

Is anyone actually doing that? I'm still running 10-speed myself. I think we're all just saying that it's ridiculous to blast other people for running 11-speed, or claiming that it's impossible to build wheels for it. If I were getting started now I'd totally be running 11-speed, but The Girl and I would need to swap four bikes plus the KICKR all at once, and we haven't felt the need yet.

rpenmanparker 

I'm still on 10 speed, three bikes. If/when SRAM brings out the wireless electronic group, i will give some thought to making the switches to 11 and electronic together. One bike at a time though.

I <3 Robots

On the next bike it'll be 11 speed...since that is what will come with on it.

My 10 speed Red group works fine for me. Not worth it to go 11 for an intermediate gear. Plus I have to get a new hub body and wheel redished to run a 11 speed cassette. Funny thing is that 11 speed XTR can use the same 10 speed hub body...but Dura Ace needs a whole new one.

sleepy

I'm fine with 10.
Just as I was fine with 9. Until I had 10 on a new bike.
Are the Derailleurs interchageable? I like mixing stuff around.
People talk about diminishing returns. Is this an instance of it? At what point is it just dumb to click click click click click until you find that gear you want as opposed to just spinning or pedaling harder?

RollCNY

My "rain" bike has a Sora 3500 full group set (Ribble $231), and it works extremely well. Even with the big front compact crank jump, the front shifts very smoothly. The only time I really notice the difference between this bike and my Centaur group is when shifting under load. And braking, but that could be helped with pads (and pad holders).

But if you want to retrofit a DT bike, 9 speed DuraAce DT levers and TRP RRL brake levers are absolutely the way to go.