LeVel Hubs
10-22-07 | 02:34 AM
#26
Banned.
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 5,543
Likes: 0
From: In the stomach of a whale. :beer:
Bikes: Lemond Fillmore, Cmofalge black baby
Yes, thanku.. I do enjoy my hub. Knowing my hub is better (and bigger) than yours has made it all worth it.. Praise Jeebus.
10-22-07 | 02:35 AM
#27
Banned
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 10,082
Likes: 1
10-22-07 | 02:41 AM
#28
Banned.
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 5,543
Likes: 0
From: In the stomach of a whale. :beer:
Bikes: Lemond Fillmore, Cmofalge black baby
Thread on cogs are just bad design.. srsly. I would say that knowing your cog will never slip or strip would be the biggest benefit to the rider, -that and the fact that it sets your bike apart and helps make it more pimp.. and more pimp often = more ladies.. and more ladies is a mo' better benefit for the rider.
Last edited by red house; 10-22-07 at 02:54 AM.
10-22-07 | 02:42 AM
#29
Banned.
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 5,543
Likes: 0
From: In the stomach of a whale. :beer:
Bikes: Lemond Fillmore, Cmofalge black baby
10-22-07 | 02:44 AM
#30
Banned
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 10,082
Likes: 1
Thread on cogs are just bad design.. srsly. I would say that knowing your cog will never slip or strip would be the biggest benefit to the rider, -that and the fact that it sets your bike apart and makes helps make it more pimp.. and more pimp often = more ladies.. and more ladies is a mo' better benefit for the rider.
10-22-07 | 02:48 AM
#31
Banned.
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 5,543
Likes: 0
From: In the stomach of a whale. :beer:
Bikes: Lemond Fillmore, Cmofalge black baby
Even if it never slips.. it is still not the best design and the potential for slippage will always be there. Is it worth taking the risk of 'not' getting a LeVeL design hub, and putting your trust and potentially your life - in a few shallow, flimsy threads? ..I put it to you thusly.
10-22-07 | 02:58 AM
#32
Banned
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 10,082
Likes: 1
Even if it never slips.. it is still not the best design and the potential for slippage will always be there. Is it worth taking the risk of 'not' getting a LeVeL design hub, and putting your trust and potentially your life - in a few shallow, flimsy threads? ..I put it to you thusly.
-?
10-22-07 | 03:09 AM
#34
Banned
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 10,082
Likes: 1
10-22-07 | 03:21 AM
#35
Banned.
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 5,543
Likes: 0
From: In the stomach of a whale. :beer:
Bikes: Lemond Fillmore, Cmofalge black baby
I dunno (?) ..
-? . .maybe it's possible they're in my kitchen somewhere? Right now there's a lot of boxes in my kitchen w/mystery contents -bound for the dominican republic.. it wouldn't surprise me if your reports were somewhere in there (with god knows what else). I think the 'real' question you should be asking is; what could the dominican's possibly want with these?
Last edited by red house; 10-22-07 at 04:06 AM.
10-22-07 | 06:26 AM
#36
roll'em high
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 2,391
Likes: 0
From: columbus, ohio
The problem I have with everything you say is, you splurged moolah for a Level hub and two cogs. That's a LOT of money. You're tainted by cognitive dissonance - you simply have to defend your purchase.
Sorry, but your opinion is basically useless. I'll listen once you sell the Level stuff.
Sorry, but your opinion is basically useless. I'll listen once you sell the Level stuff.
people spend way too much money on bike **** all of the time. they buy **** that's far higher quality than they need, etc. if you noticed, i have not argued that Level hubs win out in any sort of price/performance ratio or that you should run out and buy them. i do, however, think that they are a very well designed (perhaps overdesigned) hub and a great option if you want to switch to a non-threaded system.
Last edited by shants; 10-22-07 at 06:36 AM.
10-22-07 | 06:43 AM
#37
roll'em high
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 2,391
Likes: 0
From: columbus, ohio
Tight tolerances and stress-bearing knuckles or not, a couple of people have complained about bolts loosening and even strecthing (I have no idea how level managed to find such craptastic bolts, must have custom ordered them... the 3c bolts in the hardware store are better...)
The knuckles are not press fit like a sq taper crank so they don't really take over the stress, and 3 bolts are fewer than 6. The system is obviously plenty strong but not bombproof. IMHO 6 bolt is bombproof. Tighten all 6 with a regular multitool and done. There's just no way you'll generate enough torque to **** with 6 M5 bolts, not even with skidding and all that.
BTW, it's nice that they have a version w/ ss threads now. :thumbs up:
Again, it's a solid system solidly overpriced.
The knuckles are not press fit like a sq taper crank so they don't really take over the stress, and 3 bolts are fewer than 6. The system is obviously plenty strong but not bombproof. IMHO 6 bolt is bombproof. Tighten all 6 with a regular multitool and done. There's just no way you'll generate enough torque to **** with 6 M5 bolts, not even with skidding and all that.
BTW, it's nice that they have a version w/ ss threads now. :thumbs up:
Again, it's a solid system solidly overpriced.
10-22-07 | 07:04 AM
#38
Jonnys ilegitimate Father
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 2,994
Likes: 0
From: toronto
Bikes: too many too list
What you like to call bias I call experience with the product. I don't have any ties to the company and sold the hubs and cogs at well below MSRP....$200 for the pair and $40 for the cogs. This is not crazy expensive. And this was when our dollar was not worth more than the american $.
If you don't like the design or think it a waste of time, fine. But it doesn't change the fact that they are good, durable hubs with a different cog system than has been available for 80+ years.
10-22-07 | 08:58 AM
#39
THIS SPACE FOR RENT
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 2,849
Likes: 1
The problem, right now, with the disc bolt on system is that there is really no one manufacturing cogs (is boone still making them), the chainline (not that level's is perfect) situation can be iffy, and there aren't standard flip-flop options. if you're using a front hub, you're going to need to respace, and if you are using a rear, you're most likely dealing with mountain bike hub spacing and will have a freehub body hanging around. the freehub situation is fairly gnarly, because the wheel still has to be dished to the freehub side and the forces generated by the added disc cog are going to be on the under tensioned side of the wheel that isn't built to handle them.
10-22-07 | 09:27 AM
#40
Sir Fallalot
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 5,288
Likes: 17
But I take back the bias alert. If you're not in the business of selling them, then you have no reason to defend the design. I'm just baffled that you'd say they're not overpriced. How do you call $42 for spacers? And $40 for a cog? 'cmon now, seriously...
10-22-07 | 09:37 AM
#41
roll'em high
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 2,391
Likes: 0
From: columbus, ohio
The hell it isn't.
But I take back the bias alert. If you're not in the business of selling them, then you have no reason to defend the design. I'm just baffled that you'd say they're not overpriced. How do you call $42 for spacers? And $40 for a cog? 'cmon now, seriously...
But I take back the bias alert. If you're not in the business of selling them, then you have no reason to defend the design. I'm just baffled that you'd say they're not overpriced. How do you call $42 for spacers? And $40 for a cog? 'cmon now, seriously...
10-22-07 | 09:44 AM
#42
Jonnys ilegitimate Father
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 2,994
Likes: 0
From: toronto
Bikes: too many too list
The hell it isn't.
But I take back the bias alert. If you're not in the business of selling them, then you have no reason to defend the design. I'm just baffled that you'd say they're not overpriced. How do you call $42 for spacers? And $40 for a cog? 'cmon now, seriously...
But I take back the bias alert. If you're not in the business of selling them, then you have no reason to defend the design. I'm just baffled that you'd say they're not overpriced. How do you call $42 for spacers? And $40 for a cog? 'cmon now, seriously...
Last edited by cavernmech; 10-22-07 at 09:52 AM.
10-22-07 | 10:16 AM
#43
BFSSFG old timer
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 1,912
Likes: 1
From: Fredrock
The problem I have with everything you say is, you splurged moolah for a Level hub and two cogs. That's a LOT of money. You're tainted by cognitive dissonance - you simply have to defend your purchase.
Sorry, but your opinion is basically useless. I'll listen once you sell the Level stuff.
Sorry, but your opinion is basically useless. I'll listen once you sell the Level stuff.
Shants has a lot of good points on both the Level hub and the disc cog set up. I have bikes set up with both, and neither has failed. I also have a traditional cog and lockring setup and a suicide hub setup. If I have some time in the future I'll put together some info and opinions on each.
In the meantime, I've put in a lot of time on a Level hub for testing and review (as in, I did not pay for it), so maybe that will satisfy your criteria for a "useful" opinion. I'll let it be known that in general I'm not a fan of proprietary systems. On the other hand, innovation needs to start somewhere and sometimes this is how it comes about. If a proprietary system offers a better design than the current standard, it's worth considering IMO.
The following preface and review was written in Aug. 2005
I am a firm believer in the hub's concept, it is a really cool idea and I now have been riding it for about a year (probably longer, I don't remember right now), so this is long term test data here. Just now replacing the bearings, which seems to be about on par with the schedule for my Surly hubs, so no complaints there. Plus, there's a new version that has the fixed cog interface on one side and a threaded freewheel option on the other so you run that high end White Industries freewheel you ponied up for.
********************
Level Components Hub Review
The bike industry is full of innovation, many times seeing new creations that don't necessarily solve a particular problem but usually just amount to doing something different. All fine and well from a creativity standpoint, but as consumers the industry tries to convince us we need it. Then, once in a while something comes along that genuinely solves a problem and you smack yourself in the head and say "Why didn't someone else think of this sooner". In that corner, we have the Level Components fixed gear hub.
Standard fixed gear hubs use a threaded cog mated to a threaded body. The body generally being aluminum to keep the hub weight down while the cog is steel for long wear. A second, slightly smaller in diameter, set of reversed threads sits outboard of the cog. A lock ring spins on here and prevents the cog from unthreading when applying rearward forces.
Problem is, those soft aluminum threads can strip leaving your nice fixed hub useless and worse, putting your life on the line. I've done it before when heading for an intersection, light turns red, lock up my legs to skid stop. The crank stops moving but the wheel keeps rolling. It's an unsettling feeling and unless you have another method of braking, it can be quite dangerous. It can also leave you stranded.
The Level hub solves this beautifully with a splined interface called the Eye-To-Knuckle. Three large aluminum knuckles are machined into the hub. The steel cog mates to these and drives the hub when pedaling. The cog is held in place with 3 torx bolts, although you could easily swap to hex if you didn't want to carry an extra tool for emergencies (note: in all the months I been riding this, I've never had a need).
The hub body itself is a satiny machined body, silver anodized with the Level logo etched in it. High flanges allow for shorter spokes for strength and look tough to boot. The whole thing rolls on easily replacable cartridge bearings. The hub bolts on with 6mm allen bolts riding on cup-like washers meaning you can leave the 15mm open-end wrench at home.
The hub has a couple of nice touches. Well thought out design features that earn it a top-notch rating alone in my opinion. First, spacers bolt on to the aluminum axle, one for each side, that also serve as the contact point to the frame. What makes these special is, screw them off and install a different size and easily convert the hub ton any of the following widths: 120mm and 135mm. Next cool feature: the micro adjustable chain line. The cog is asymmetrical and by flipping it over you move the chain line from 45mm to 52mm. The hub is a flip-flop so you can double your pleasure by mounting up a second gear. Drillings available in 32 and 36 hole. The rear hub (tested) weighs 499g with a stainless steel 16t cog.
When the hub arrived it was setup for 120mm spacing. A couple of turns of the allen wrenches and the small spacers were off and the large ones were on. Smooth. Laced this puppy up and dropped it on the Surly Crosscheck and installed the chain. Perfect chain line, ready to rock.
Once on the bike it ran silent and smooth and I soon forgot about it - just like a nice fixed gear hub should be. Flat changes were a breeze with an allen wrench and after hundreds of miles no adjustments were needed. The cog is wearing nicely, which is to say, I can't detect any wear. It's steel and tough and has tall teeth with a nicely tapered point. No play ever developed between the hub and cog interface.
Were there any problems? Nope, not a single one. The hub is a good-looking, reliable product that solves an actual problem with fixed gear hubs.
Everyone that saw the hub thought it was a great idea. The only hesitation I heard was concerns about the proprietary cog. Sure you can't run down to your average LBS and pick one up, but it's not like they break and they certainly don't wear out at a moments notice. The other concern about the cog was: what if Level goes out of business? A risk for sure, but look at the bike industry and many companies that still exist but don't have spare parts from even a few years ago (think shocks and shifters). If you are that worried, pick up a few spares. I talked to Scott at Level about this concern and here's what he had to say: "I have been beating down as many doors as i can with respect to this issue. The worst-case scenario would be if I do go out of business I would give an independent cog manufacturer the specs for the cogs and they (the consumer) would
have a viable source for spares. Best case is that all the manufacturers i have talked with accept what i am doing and start producing cogs". Hopefully that puts any worries to rest.
Bottom line, for the price this is a sweet, solid hub that won't leave you stranded on the side of the road.
********************
Level Components Hub Review
The bike industry is full of innovation, many times seeing new creations that don't necessarily solve a particular problem but usually just amount to doing something different. All fine and well from a creativity standpoint, but as consumers the industry tries to convince us we need it. Then, once in a while something comes along that genuinely solves a problem and you smack yourself in the head and say "Why didn't someone else think of this sooner". In that corner, we have the Level Components fixed gear hub.
Standard fixed gear hubs use a threaded cog mated to a threaded body. The body generally being aluminum to keep the hub weight down while the cog is steel for long wear. A second, slightly smaller in diameter, set of reversed threads sits outboard of the cog. A lock ring spins on here and prevents the cog from unthreading when applying rearward forces.
Problem is, those soft aluminum threads can strip leaving your nice fixed hub useless and worse, putting your life on the line. I've done it before when heading for an intersection, light turns red, lock up my legs to skid stop. The crank stops moving but the wheel keeps rolling. It's an unsettling feeling and unless you have another method of braking, it can be quite dangerous. It can also leave you stranded.
The Level hub solves this beautifully with a splined interface called the Eye-To-Knuckle. Three large aluminum knuckles are machined into the hub. The steel cog mates to these and drives the hub when pedaling. The cog is held in place with 3 torx bolts, although you could easily swap to hex if you didn't want to carry an extra tool for emergencies (note: in all the months I been riding this, I've never had a need).
The hub body itself is a satiny machined body, silver anodized with the Level logo etched in it. High flanges allow for shorter spokes for strength and look tough to boot. The whole thing rolls on easily replacable cartridge bearings. The hub bolts on with 6mm allen bolts riding on cup-like washers meaning you can leave the 15mm open-end wrench at home.
The hub has a couple of nice touches. Well thought out design features that earn it a top-notch rating alone in my opinion. First, spacers bolt on to the aluminum axle, one for each side, that also serve as the contact point to the frame. What makes these special is, screw them off and install a different size and easily convert the hub ton any of the following widths: 120mm and 135mm. Next cool feature: the micro adjustable chain line. The cog is asymmetrical and by flipping it over you move the chain line from 45mm to 52mm. The hub is a flip-flop so you can double your pleasure by mounting up a second gear. Drillings available in 32 and 36 hole. The rear hub (tested) weighs 499g with a stainless steel 16t cog.
When the hub arrived it was setup for 120mm spacing. A couple of turns of the allen wrenches and the small spacers were off and the large ones were on. Smooth. Laced this puppy up and dropped it on the Surly Crosscheck and installed the chain. Perfect chain line, ready to rock.
Once on the bike it ran silent and smooth and I soon forgot about it - just like a nice fixed gear hub should be. Flat changes were a breeze with an allen wrench and after hundreds of miles no adjustments were needed. The cog is wearing nicely, which is to say, I can't detect any wear. It's steel and tough and has tall teeth with a nicely tapered point. No play ever developed between the hub and cog interface.
Were there any problems? Nope, not a single one. The hub is a good-looking, reliable product that solves an actual problem with fixed gear hubs.
Everyone that saw the hub thought it was a great idea. The only hesitation I heard was concerns about the proprietary cog. Sure you can't run down to your average LBS and pick one up, but it's not like they break and they certainly don't wear out at a moments notice. The other concern about the cog was: what if Level goes out of business? A risk for sure, but look at the bike industry and many companies that still exist but don't have spare parts from even a few years ago (think shocks and shifters). If you are that worried, pick up a few spares. I talked to Scott at Level about this concern and here's what he had to say: "I have been beating down as many doors as i can with respect to this issue. The worst-case scenario would be if I do go out of business I would give an independent cog manufacturer the specs for the cogs and they (the consumer) would
have a viable source for spares. Best case is that all the manufacturers i have talked with accept what i am doing and start producing cogs". Hopefully that puts any worries to rest.
Bottom line, for the price this is a sweet, solid hub that won't leave you stranded on the side of the road.
10-22-07 | 11:26 AM
#44
Sir Fallalot
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 5,288
Likes: 17
The spacers I have never had to deal with as all who ride em bought the right spaced hub to start with...but yeah...I guess $42 is a bit steep. As for cogs, up here in Canuckistan the regular price for a Dura-Ace cog is $32....$8 more doesn't seem ridiculous for a small batch, stainless cog.
I'd be probably somewhat softer on the issue if LeVel offered a solution that's clearly superior to the existing ones, but I am not convinced. LóFarkas had some good points regarding LeVel vs. drilled cogs. And I still don't think a decently assembled track hub + cog can be stripped, although I do accept that my example with track sprinters wasn't necessarily supportive of that point. It doesn't detract from it, either... but ok.
Last edited by wroomwroomoops; 10-22-07 at 11:53 AM.
10-22-07 | 11:49 AM
#46
Sir Fallalot
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 5,288
Likes: 17
Actually, I'd say your above statements are useless and your accusation of cognitive dissonance is not based on the facts. To say the guy can't have an useful opinion because he paid for the hub and cogs is non-sense. I assume you'll refrain from posting any opinions on parts that you've purchased because surely you will be too biased to offer an honest assessment.
Hey shants... sorry about that.
10-24-07 | 02:47 AM
#47
LF for the accentdeprived
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 3,549
Likes: 0
From: Budapest, Hungary
The problem, right now, with the disc bolt on system is that there is really no one manufacturing cogs (is boone still making them), the chainline (not that level's is perfect) situation can be iffy, and there aren't standard flip-flop options. if you're using a front hub, you're going to need to respace, and if you are using a rear, you're most likely dealing with mountain bike hub spacing and will have a freehub body hanging around. the freehub situation is fairly gnarly, because the wheel still has to be dished to the freehub side and the forces generated by the added disc cog are going to be on the under tensioned side of the wheel that isn't built to handle them.
Boone is still supposed to make 'em but who knows. So is Kogswell, but that's even more unreliable/slow. He used to post here and still it was unclear if he actually had any available... funny.
BTW, using a ss disk hub designed for BMX fw's sorta solves the hub conondrum 'cept for the spacing thing. Me, I just respaced a front. If I weighed 200lbs I wouldn't have...
Yeah, it is a kludge and a good one at that
05-16-08 | 12:08 PM
#48
Thread Starter
slowpoke
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 56
Likes: 0
From: Baltimore
Funny thing. I didn't get a reply for a while and got busy at work and lost track of bikeforums. Then today I thought: "You know, I still want to build some bomb-proof wheels with Level hubs. Perhaps they are worth the extra money vs. Surly if i read that after a few years of use, people were still happy with them given all the potential pitfalls of such a system"
So I searched and found my thread. Yeah, they're about $100 more for the rear hub vs surly and the cogs are a bit more. But gosh darn it, I'm worth it! Ok, in reality, I'll probably never build my dream bike.
So I searched and found my thread. Yeah, they're about $100 more for the rear hub vs surly and the cogs are a bit more. But gosh darn it, I'm worth it! Ok, in reality, I'll probably never build my dream bike.
05-16-08 | 09:14 PM
#49
Stinky McStinkface
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 943
Likes: 0
From: Pa.
Bikes: Clemente Custom(not built-up), TI Raleigh Record SS, VitaSprint Mixte SS, IRO S.E.(coming) Ibex Trophy Pro
I'm going to build up a set for a fixed hybrid frame I acquired. I am going to be lacing them up to either deep v or fusion in 650c.
Here is the frame in its previous life -
with 700c wheels as a track bike
https://www.fixedgeargallery.com/2006/feb/CarlosCruz.htm
with MTB 26" wheels - fixed
https://www.fixedgeargallery.com/2004/g/cruz.htm
It has 135mm rear spacing
Dedacciai Zero Uno, Long Shen Lugs.
It's pretty sweet.
Here is the frame in its previous life -
with 700c wheels as a track bike
https://www.fixedgeargallery.com/2006/feb/CarlosCruz.htm
with MTB 26" wheels - fixed
https://www.fixedgeargallery.com/2004/g/cruz.htm
It has 135mm rear spacing
Dedacciai Zero Uno, Long Shen Lugs.
It's pretty sweet.
__________________
Because, yeah... uh huh! Umm, yeah!
Because, yeah... uh huh! Umm, yeah!
Last edited by exfreewheeler; 05-16-08 at 09:20 PM.
