BigAura

Sorry you miss-understood what I was saying. The BS is the magical conversion of a motorized-bike into a non-motorized vehicle by the addition of pedals is the BS I'm referring to.

Obviously there are a lot of lazy-fat-butt politicians to back up the lazy-fat-butt eBikers. I guess I'll just have to accept that reality!

350htrr

WOW, you needs to not let those panties bunch up like they must be... It can make people... what's the word... hostile? Irrational? Can't say it cause I don't want to be banned...

Rob_E

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electric_bicycle_laws

You can see that many states classify certain e-bikes as bicycles. You can consider it BS if you like, but that doesn't change the law. I agree that it's confusing. And it's a shame when someone breaking the law interferes with other people's enjoyment. But it's good to know which laws are actually being broken. Around here, MUP speed limits are routinely ignored, but mainly by human-powered bikes. But I'm sure on the GAP it's primarily e-bikes going too fast.

350htrr

E-Bikes... What is an E-Bike? That is the question... Well, anything with a motor on it is an E-Bike. I agree, 100%. is it the same as a regular bike? NO, it is not, BUT; as you pointed out there is a difference as far as the law is concerned... UNFORTUNATELY people take advantage of the law... Surprise, surprise... And here we have a kneejerk reaction from some people, and their solution is to ban all E-Bikes.

I suspect the real solution is to bring the E-Bike Laws into alignment with the Bike laws in Europe, where they have been dealing with this "problem" for over the last 10 year+. And their solution was to come up wit reasonable limits as to where the line should be set... I applaud their decision, I disagree with the limits set in the USA, wwaaayyy too high, thus here we are, a backlash from bicyclists who thing it's too high too... And yes I too am a bicyclist that thinks its not right, the limit is set too high...

jefnvk

The BS is the inability to realize many different forms of motorized bikes exist, including ones where the sole throttle control is the rider pedaling the bike as fast as they can if they want to go faster, which as specified many times are the ones us supposed ebike lovers are talking about (and presumably the ones the OP was referring to, as it was in the EU). I don't think there is any disagreement on this thread that ones in which the sole source of power applied is by a motor controlled with a throttle with your feet stationary moves past an ebike, despite you wanting to present them as the only things out there and the things we are supporting.

What about about ones with gas-powered motors. Are they still ebikes? (note, sarcasm, no need to start an argument about motor v engine!)


In any case, a quick perusing of that list indicates that ~20MPH is the cut off for the motor to assist. Considering I did that for a good portion of my MUP ride tonite, on a 38 year old gaspipe Schwinn 10-speed while being passed by others, I think we can toss out the bit where they are any more unsafe to have on MUPs than pedal-only bikes.

boomhauer

It still requires the same amount of overall HUMAN energy (watts) no matter how many gears you have! Get it? Bone up on your physics.

I'm totally with BigAura on this one.

Hopefully, e-bike touring weenies will start their own forum. This is insane.

Maybe I'm just a masocist but my strongest memories of touring involve going up 7+mile mountain passes and feeling pretty good about myself. Not sure what you do with a 40 lbs e-bike when the battery dies half way up. I guess the suffering really kicks in.

350htrr

Yes it does require the same amount of energy... but over a longer amount of time... Thus if you don't have that energy to put out in a short amount of time as when riding a single speed you would need to keep the speed up.. A 27 speed is going to assist you to keep going... There is mechanical assistance and there is motor assistance to allow you to get a job done, different type of assistance, but still assistance non the less... JMO If you don't agree try it, pick a big long hill and go for it with a single speed, then go for it with a 27 speed, I bet you WILL find a difference in the outcome... Try that for a real physics lesson.

350htrr

Yea, it is. unfortunately many an E-Bike can and does go faster than the Legal limit, you know what the number one question is after how far will it go? how fast can I go and how fast can I make it go, people they manage to get around a lot of laws...

jefnvk

Yeah, but by the same token mopeds in Michigan are limited devices with no more than 50cc and 35MPH on level ground with a rider of a certain weight, few commercial models come in under that limit, and overboring kits are readily available. De jure illegal, de facto no one gives a crap.

The people "touring" on ebikes (at least the folks in Europe, I have no idea what the folks on pick-your-favorite-US-adventure-trail are doing) are not the folks going around souping up electric motors to bypass laws. They're the folks who view bikes as tools, own one, and use it for everything. They're the folks who haven't even heard of Strava, could care less about how fast YOU did something, who are far more concerned about doing things in the best manner for them.

In any case, I now have a strong desire to go buy an ebike and go on an epic tour, posting here regularly, just to PO people who can't get past the notion what others choose really is none of their business to criticize (unless, again, they are in competition with one another)

jefnvk

OK, why do you have gears then? Answer: it makes your power input more efficient, i.e., giving you an advantage.

Instead of starting an ebike touring weenie forum, can we start a "gotta do it my way or hit the highway" (pun not intended) touring forum? Half the reason I argue vehemently about stuff like this is because not long ago, I was the one with no clue taking advice from bikers like BigAura, and I nearly said screw the whole sport because of it. Outside of the rather unrealistic situation of an ebike beating you up a hill and taking the very last campsite at the campground you were heading for a mile down the road, what in the heck does it bother any of you so much that you act so strongly against people using a device that is available to enhance their enjoyment of the sport? Seriously, I don't own one and have no desire to, but I am having a hard time understanding why anyone cares how others tour, or how they should stop calling what they do a particular phrase because of your own personal preferences.

If we're going by who is most macho, I ask again: my favorite bike is a 10 speed, gaspipe, nearly 40 year old Schwinn. Why do you very likely have something half the weight, with more gears, and more technology?

350htrr

But mopeds aren't allowed on mups...

saddlesores

only if you make it a charity ride! do it on a full electric (no peddles)
scooter with 3-speed auto trans. do it for "awareness." no, not of
anything particular........just ride for "awareness."

don't forget to post a link to your gocrowdme page to accept
donations to cover expenses and gear, with any remainder
donated to "awareness."

jefnvk

Neither are gas powered bicycle conversions by ANY legal definition, unleashed dogs, or loitering under overpasses, yet I still see far more than I've seen illegally converted ebikes.

BigAura

I working on something similar 500w each

jefnvk

Man, could you imagine those chariot racing those in a Roman circus?

BigAura

Now my design will be all carbon fibre (duh!). The pedal system would actually be a generator that charged the battery but it won't start until you pedal a few strokes (double-duh!). The seat would be relaxed position, similar to a recumbent. No ropes or mechanical steering total drive-by-wire. Optional self-driving mode!

BigAura

Well I guess you guys got my creative juices flowing. Since the big hurdle you guys have identified is battery life I've got your solution.

eBike Patent Idea: An alcohol powered generator that would charge the batteries.

True you'd have to stop every once in a while at a hardware/pharmacy/liquor store (e-85 stations too) but just long enough pour in a couple of gallons. I'm thinking any US legal issues would be resolved with an alliance with politicians from the agriculture states that make the alcohol.

Optional Idea: Worldwide hydraulic fracturing is making natural gas cheap enough that might be a way to go: NatGasGen, oh yeah!

jefnvk

Don't forget to combine a stove with it. Charge your batteries and cook your dinner at the same time!

BigAura

You're right. Updating blueprints.

Speaking of blue. I'm thinking of the fashion color too. It seems THE hot fashion color for 2016 is:

BUTTERCUP (Pantone: 12-0752 TCX)

Sounds perfect!

MixedRider

Using WA as an example, the site you list is correct in terms of indicating E-bikes as electric assist bicycles if they do not exceed the requirements listed. However, something it does not mention (specific to WA for now, I didn't research all states), is if the path is designated as "motorized vehicles prohibited", E-bikes/assist are not allowed on those paths.


https://www.wsp.wa.gov/traveler/docs/...ct_bicycle.pdf

Many portions of regional trails in WA are designated as "motorized vehicle prohibited", however, I have routinely seen e-bike on these trails.

Rob_E

It is a confusing and inconsistently applied law, or set of laws. I believe in my state (North Carolina), e-bikes do not meet the state's definition of "motorized vehicle," and so are basically allowed where ever bikes are allowed.

And while I don't have a problem with this policy, I'm not advocating for the illegal use of e-bikes. I just feel like if someone feels like that's the best way for them to get around, and they're doing it legally, then all this fussing is really just a waste of time. If you care that much how someone else gets around, you might want to pick up another hobby or two to fill your excess free time.

If e-bikes are doing real harm somewhere, just by their nature, that's another issue. But what I seem to be reading here is a lot of people who are simply offended that it doesn't meet their definition of bike touring. I will say that if I really considered it, it might not meet my definition of bike touring. But I don't have an e-bike, so I don't really have to consider it, and I don't really care how other people choose to get around.

Squeezebox

E bikes are gonna eventually happen. Technology is slowly improving. I think it sounds good for commuting. In 20 years when I'm 83 there's a good chance I'll have one.

MixedRider

As I have said in many other posts, I don't care if people choose to use them as long as it is being done in a legal and safe manner. I am more concerned about the tolerance of motorized bicycles in places they are not allowed to be, just because they are "electric" powered bicycles. Its the lack of consistency and enforcement of rules. If you see an unauthorized gas powered motorbike on a non-motorized trail, what do you think?

E-bike/assist are being marketed in WA as an alternative to driving a motor vehicle w/o the level of effort required for powering a traditional bike and you get ALL the advantages of riding a traditional bike. This is simply not true. E-conversion kits are being marketed as being able to be modified with a maximum speed of 32mph, which exceeds WA rules of 20mph. Conversions | Seattle E-Bike

There is a place for e-bikes. And they are growing in popularity. But because of the ambiguity of being a bike and somewhat a motorized vehicle puts it into this extreme gray area. It gives the appearance of being exempt from any rules.

jefnvk

I see it a few times a summer. Unless they are acting in a truly dangerous fashion, my thoughts are pretty much along the lines of "oh well", the same as when I see any number of other law violations on a daily basis. Maybe a cop is sitting at the end of the trail and will nab them.

Just be glad we don't have these things legally running around on the bike paths here in America, as the supposedly perfect Dutch bike lane system allows along with mopeds

alan s 

Personally, I think leg-assisted motor bikes will cause the downfall of Western society and should be strongly opposed on all fronts. They make you fat and lazy, or if you are already fat and lazy, allow you to do something you really shouldn't be doing. They promote lawlessness by encouraging scofflaws to use public infrastructure in a way that is prohibited (or at least wasn't the original plan). And they are just plain creepy. I mean, who can ride along at 25 mph, not breaking a sweat, pretending to be pedaling and smiling all at the same time? Not even Lance all doped up could do that. Folks, we (the real cyclists) need to stand up and fight this scourge on all levels.