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Cholesterol 232. Now what?

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Old 10-17-06, 07:41 PM
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Originally Posted by kmckay
Recent clinical studies have shown that lean protein-based diets are more effective in improving blood cholesterol and other blood lipid levels than are low-fat, high-carbohydrate diets. High protein diets have also been shown to lower blood homocysteine levels, another risk factor for heart disease. When nutritionists abandoned meats as part of heart-healthy diets, they unknowingly threw out the baby with the bath water. It was the saturated fat that accompanied the lean protein that was harmful -- not the lean protein itself.

I would keep the meat

Also I eat steak {grassfed} and eggs {omega 3} chicken, turkey, fish with a little fruit and allot of vegies as my carb source and my numbers are way better than my high carb low fat/protien numbers.
did you get the impression I meant to advise avoiding meat? au contraire! I just said to avoid the things on my list, which means go ahead and eat your meat! btw, I dont agree that sat. fats are harmful or at all dangerous, particularly in the context of a low carb diet. Your body actually makes sat. fat from excess carbs, so how can it be harmful?
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Old 10-17-06, 07:45 PM
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Originally Posted by mrfreddy
did you get the impression I meant to advise avoiding meat? au contraire! I just said to avoid the things on my list, which means go ahead and eat your meat! btw, I dont agree that sat. fats are harmful or at all dangerous, particularly in the context of a low carb diet. Your body actually makes sat. fat from excess carbs, so how can it be harmful?

Ok guess we are on the same page

BTW where is the training to failure thread?
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Old 10-17-06, 07:49 PM
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Originally Posted by kmckay
I don't know where either of you guys stand on training to failure but I never do it, I stay just under and have packed on allot of lean mass ala xfit.
I do two full body 20ish minute workouts twice a week, 3 - 6 reps, very heavy weight, very slowly, always to failure... and I've been getting stronger and stronger. I add about 2 - 5 pounds each week to most exercises.

I think you can probably do just about as well by training to just short of failure.

It's funny, it seems that Anthony and I dont actually disagree by much, just the "to failure" bit, I think. Just two hot heads with bad chemistry, I suppose...
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Old 10-17-06, 07:53 PM
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Originally Posted by kmckay

BTW where is the training to failure thread?
dont know that there is such a beast...
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Old 10-17-06, 07:56 PM
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I don't want to hijack we can continue on my xfit thread https://www.bikeforums.net/training-nutrition/237215-do-you-crossfit.html if you want to discuss more.
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Old 10-17-06, 08:22 PM
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Originally Posted by mrfreddy
what this has to do with anything at all in this thread is beyond me. I guess you're back to attacking the messenger instead of the message, as usual.
Its supporting proof of the same things many here have said of you. Your not here to discuss, your hear to preach a point and dismiss all arguments against your point of view without reading or understanding them.
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Old 10-17-06, 09:19 PM
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sorry you see it that way jarery. I enjoy making my points and breaking down the counter arguments. Show me where I've dismissed something out of hand and I've been clearly wrong. Its quite possible, I've learned a lot here along the way...
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Old 10-17-06, 09:32 PM
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Lets see...
You can try scrolling up, you can review your post history. Its pretty elementary.
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Old 10-17-06, 09:39 PM
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Sample menu mostly paleo for those who are interested. Eat like this for one month and you cholesterol will drop.

breakfast
1 cup blue berry
40g egg protein
hand full walnuts
tablespoon walnut oil
sesame seeds
cinnamon (insulin)
blend mmmmm

Fish oil chaser

Lunch
4 oz turkey
avocado
2 plumbs
2 cup green beans
bunch o macadamia nuts

snack
chicken breast
huge salad with oil vinegar
apple
asparagus with pesto yum

dinner
3-4 oz steak (top round grass fed)
steamed cabbage
broccoli simmered in olive oil
2 cup strawberries

See not so weird or fad. Allot of low gi food and super high nutrient density.

brb

Glycemic index in relation to coronary disease
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q..._uids=15294465

Last edited by kmckay; 10-17-06 at 10:51 PM.
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Old 10-18-06, 07:39 AM
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Hate to break it to most of the hi-cholesterol believers, but as far the medical institution is concerned, high cholesterol has shown to correlate extremely well with worsened heart disease. True, we haven't done causational experiments (would probably be unethical in humans), but if you're going to go against this thought of cholesterol=increased heart disease risk, you're going against the accepted national guidelines of the internal medical association.

It is true that people can grab small articles from this and that journal to prove otherwise, but the bulk of evidence as reviewed by a consortium of MDs around the nation over several years have come to the conclusion thus far that lowering cholesterol is probably one of the most effective means of reducing heart disease risk, even if it means starting a statin drug agent at an early age. It's what they teach in medical school, and they even test you multiple times with specific questions on current medical board exams to make sure that new doctors are up-to-date with current guidelines.

If you have any doubts to this whatsoever, call your local internal medicine doctor and ask him what the guidelines are for cholesterol and statin use. I have no doubt that some people have better "genetics" and thus may be fine with higher cholesterols, but for the vast majority of folks out there, lower your cholesterol.


And also, by the way, large statin studies have shown a real, but very small risk of liver toxicity, estimated to be less than 1 in 7000 users. Usually these manifest with elevated liver enzymes; if you're one of the unlucky few, no statins for you. However, for the VAST majority of users, it is also common belief that the benefit of lowering your cholesterol significantly with a statin far outweighs this risk for most people.
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Old 10-18-06, 07:49 AM
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Originally Posted by kmckay
Sample menu mostly paleo for those who are interested. Eat like this for one month and you cholesterol will drop.

breakfast
1 cup blue berry
40g egg protein
hand full walnuts
tablespoon walnut oil
sesame seeds
cinnamon (insulin)
blend mmmmm

Fish oil chaser

Lunch
4 oz turkey
avocado
2 plumbs
2 cup green beans
bunch o macadamia nuts

snack
chicken breast
huge salad with oil vinegar
apple
asparagus with pesto yum

dinner
3-4 oz steak (top round grass fed)
steamed cabbage
broccoli simmered in olive oil
2 cup strawberries

See not so weird or fad. Allot of low gi food and super high nutrient density.

brb

Glycemic index in relation to coronary disease
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q..._uids=15294465

But, where are the grub worms, lizards, grasshoppers, and other common paleolithic protein sources?
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Old 10-18-06, 09:21 AM
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Originally Posted by agarose2000
Hate to break it to most of the hi-cholesterol believers, but as far the medical institution is concerned, high cholesterol has shown to correlate extremely well with worsened heart disease. True, we haven't done causational experiments (would probably be unethical in humans), but if you're going to go against this thought of cholesterol=increased heart disease risk, you're going against the accepted national guidelines of the internal medical association.

It is true that people can grab small articles from this and that journal to prove otherwise, but the bulk of evidence as reviewed by a consortium of MDs around the nation over several years have come to the conclusion thus far that lowering cholesterol is probably one of the most effective means of reducing heart disease risk, even if it means starting a statin drug agent at an early age. It's what they teach in medical school, and they even test you multiple times with specific questions on current medical board exams to make sure that new doctors are up-to-date with current guidelines.

If you have any doubts to this whatsoever, call your local internal medicine doctor and ask him what the guidelines are for cholesterol and statin use. I have no doubt that some people have better "genetics" and thus may be fine with higher cholesterols, but for the vast majority of folks out there, lower your cholesterol.


And also, by the way, large statin studies have shown a real, but very small risk of liver toxicity, estimated to be less than 1 in 7000 users. Usually these manifest with elevated liver enzymes; if you're one of the unlucky few, no statins for you. However, for the VAST majority of users, it is also common belief that the benefit of lowering your cholesterol significantly with a statin far outweighs this risk for most people.

I recommend that you read Anthony Colpo's book, The Great Cholestoral Con. At Amazon right here https://www.amazon.com/Great-Choleste...880809?ie=UTF8

He takes apart the "bulk of the evidence" study by study, and identifies the flaws, conclusions published not supported by the data, incompetence, etc. etc.

There is also "The Cholesterol Myths : Exposing the Fallacy that Saturated Fat and Cholesterol Cause Heart Disease" by Uffe Ravnskov. https://www.amazon.com/Cholesterol-My...880809?ie=UTF8

I know it's hard to believe, and I catch a lot of flack here pointing it out, but the authorities really do have it completely wrong. It's the story of the century, really.
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Old 10-18-06, 09:22 AM
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You gotta draw the line somewhere
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Old 10-18-06, 09:27 AM
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Originally Posted by mrfreddy
I recommend that you read Anthony Colpo's book, The Great Cholestoral Con. At Amazon right here https://www.amazon.com/Great-Choleste...880809?ie=UTF8

He takes apart the "bulk of the evidence" study by study, and identifies the flaws, conclusions published not supported by the data, incompetence, etc. etc.

There is also "The Cholesterol Myths : Exposing the Fallacy that Saturated Fat and Cholesterol Cause Heart Disease" by Uffe Ravnskov. https://www.amazon.com/Cholesterol-My...880809?ie=UTF8

I know it's hard to believe, and I catch a lot of flack here pointing it out, but the authorities really do have it completely wrong. It's the story of the century, really.
Ha you will like this

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q...=pubmed_docsum
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Old 10-18-06, 09:31 AM
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Originally Posted by agarose2000
If you have any doubts to this whatsoever, call your local internal medicine doctor and ask him what the guidelines are for cholesterol and statin use. I have no doubt that some people have better "genetics" and thus may be fine with higher cholesterols, but for the vast majority of folks out there, lower your cholesterol.
do you agree that LDL type A, ie, the large fluffy kind, is beneficial?

do you agree that high HDL and low triglycerides are desireable?

eliminating sugars and excess carbs deliver exactly that. the bulk of the evidence supports this simple and clear set of facts. this probably applies to 99% of the population, regardless of your genetics, blood type, etc.
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Old 10-18-06, 09:35 AM
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This is also interesting

https://tinyurl.com/yd8gn3
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Old 10-18-06, 09:35 AM
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Originally Posted by kmckay
SSP

You gotta draw the line somewhere
Well then, call it something else besides "paleo". If you really want to "go paleo", you'd be turning over rocks in your back yard and eating bugs (raw) every day.

FWIW, I strongly suspect that "paleo" is just a useful marketing gimmick for yet another "Hey Moron, Don't Eat so Much Freakin' Garbage!" diet...but, that message doesn't sell quite as well as "all natural" and "paleo".
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Old 10-18-06, 09:37 AM
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Originally Posted by mrfreddy
do you agree that LDL type A, ie, the large fluffy kind, is beneficial?

do you agree that high HDL and low triglycerides are desireable?

eliminating sugars and excess carbs deliver exactly that. the bulk of the evidence supports this simple and clear set of facts. this probably applies to 99% of the population, regardless of your genetics, blood type, etc.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q..._uids=15294465
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Old 10-18-06, 12:07 PM
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Statins anyone?

https://www.thenation.com/doc/20020805/newman20020725

Really does make you wonder

https://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q...=Google+Search

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Old 10-18-06, 07:31 PM
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I'm all for pharma-free research, but I have direct experience watching large numbers of people use statins. It's quite remarkable, actually - even folks with whom diet & exercise have limited effect, statins make a tremendous dent in the vast majority of people's cholesterol. When you see it happen the first time, it actually looks almost like a magic bullet, although you have to remember that we still need to fully evaluate their long-term effects on true mortality.

There are a lot of naysayers out there, but at this point in time, statins are surprisingly effective, which is part of their advocacy by the medical consortium.

They also tell you that 50% of everything you learn in med school will be false in 10 years, so get ready to have this thing turned on its head by then.

Paleo diet, anyone? Oh, and bike a lot - that'll help as well!
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Old 10-18-06, 08:19 PM
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When people do not respond to dietary changes what % of the time do you think it is because they are not adhering to the diet as apposed to dietary change not being effective?

As a physician what is your take on the paleo diet?
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Old 10-19-06, 10:12 AM
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Originally Posted by agarose2000
I'm all for pharma-free research, but I have direct experience watching large numbers of people use statins. It's quite remarkable, actually - even folks with whom diet & exercise have limited effect, statins make a tremendous dent in the vast majority of people's cholesterol. When you see it happen the first time, it actually looks almost like a magic bullet, although you have to remember that we still need to fully evaluate their long-term effects on true mortality.

There are a lot of naysayers out there, but at this point in time, statins are surprisingly effective, which is part of their advocacy by the medical consortium.

They also tell you that 50% of everything you learn in med school will be false in 10 years, so get ready to have this thing turned on its head by then.

Paleo diet, anyone? Oh, and bike a lot - that'll help as well!
yes, statins do lower cholesterol. but to what end? do they benefit from said cholesterol lowering? is the benefit worth the expense and the risk?

here's an interesting take on the way the pill pushers distort the evidence to exagerate the benefits of statins, from slate a week or so ago, written by a cardiologist, btw:


https://www.slate.com/id/2150354/?nav=tap3



Treat Me?
The crucial health stat you've never heard of.
By Darshak Sanghavi
Posted Tuesday, Sept. 26, 2006, at 7:28 AM ET



If anything is supposed to be certain in medicine, it's that people with high cholesterol levels should be treated. But should they? Sifting through the underlying science reveals that the way in which scientists and drug companies describe the benefits of many medications—by framing the question in terms of "relative risks"—systematically inflates their value. The result is that patients frequently buy and consume medicines that do very little good. An alternative way of describing the benefits of medical therapy could help change that—if doctors and nurses would start using it.

Take cholesterol-lowering drugs. In 1995, the prestigious New England Journal of Medicine published a study strengthening the case that otherwise-healthy men with high cholesterol should take cholesterol-lowering drugs called statins. Researchers in Scotland reported a 31-percent reduction in the risk of heart attacks among men taking the statin pravastatin, sold by Bristol-Myers Squibb under the brand name Pravachol. Due in part to this study, Pravachol became one of Bristol-Myers' most profitable drugs and now grosses more than $2 billion in sales per year.

A 31 percent reduction in heart attacks, after all, seems impressive. Yet this pervasive way of describing clinical trials in medical journals—focusing on the "relative risk," in this case of heart attack—powerfully exaggerates the benefits of drugs and other invasive therapies. What, after all, does a 31 percent relative reduction in heart attacks mean? In the case of the 1995 study, it meant that taking Pravachol every day for five years reduced the incidence of heart attacks from 7.5 percent to 5.3 percent. This indeed means that there were 31 percent fewer heart attacks in patients taking the drug. But it also means that the "absolute risk" of a heart attack for any given person dropped by only 2.2 percentage points* (from 7.5 percent to 5.3 percent). The benefit of Pravachol can be summarized as a 31 percent relative reduction in heart attacks—or a 2.2 percent absolute reduction.

There's another instructive way to consider the numbers. Suppose that 100 people with high cholesterol levels took statins. Of them, 93 wouldn't have had heart attacks anyway. Five people have heart attacks despite taking Pravachol. Only the remaining two out of the original 100 avoided a heart attack by taking the daily pills. In the end, 100 people needed to be treated to avoid two heart attacks during the study period—so, the number of people who must get the treatment for a single person to benefit is 50. This is known as the "number needed to treat."

Developed by epidemiologists in 1988, the NNT was heralded as a new and objective tool to help patients make informed decisions. It avoids the confusing distinction between "relative" and "absolute" reduction of risk. The NNT is intuitive: To a savvy, healthy person with high cholesterol that didn't decrease with diet and exercise, a doctor could say, "A statin might help you, or it might not. Out of every 50 people who take them, one avoids getting a heart attack. On the other hand, that means 49 out of 50 people don't get much benefit."

But drug companies don't want people thinking that way; whenever possible, they frame discussions of drugs in terms of relative risk reduction. That's why the package insert for Pravachol highlights the 31 percent reduction and mentions the NNT not at all. In Pfizer's 2005 press release promoting the Food and Drug Administration's approval of Lipitor for patients with diabetes and other risk factors for heart disease, the company said the drug "reduced the relative risk of stroke by 26 percent compared to placebo." In its 2002 press release promoting an anti-osteoperosis drug, Actonel, Aventis exulted that treated women were "75 percent less likely to experience a first vertebral fracture." It's standard for such promotions to make no reference to NNT and to bury information about absolute risks or leave it out entirely.

The reason is simple: Big numbers encourage people, even those who should know better, to prescribe drugs. In 1991, researchers performed a survey of faculty and students in epidemiology at Harvard Medical School—a group that should understand health statistics. When they were presented with identical information about a drug in different formats, almost half had a "stronger inclination to treat patients after reading of the relative change," or risk reduction, as opposed to the NNT.

<rest of the article omitted>

Darshak Sanghavi is a pediatric cardiologist and assistant professor of pediatrics at the University of Massachusetts Medical School. He is the author of A Map of the Child: A Pediatrician's Tour of the Body.
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Old 10-19-06, 11:04 AM
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Originally Posted by mrfreddy
yes, statins do lower cholesterol. but to what end? do they benefit from said cholesterol lowering? is the benefit worth the expense and the risk?

here's an interesting take on the way the pill pushers distort the evidence to exagerate the benefits of statins, from slate a week or so ago, written by a cardiologist, btw:

https://www.slate.com/id/2150354/?nav=tap3
Sounds like a reasonable risk-reward ratio to me...I'd rather take something that reduced my chances of a heart attack by 2.2% than play the odds that I'm going to be one of the 97.8% who wouldn't benefit. My father died from a heart attack at age 47, so I'm rather cautious when it comes to cardiac risk factors.

BTW - something the slate article doesn't address is the cost-benefit ratio. Treating 100 people to prevent 2 heart attacks is likely to be a very good deal if you compare the costs of the drug treatments to the medical costs involved with treating two heart attacks.
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Old 10-19-06, 11:08 AM
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Originally Posted by SSP
Sounds like a reasonable risk-reward ratio to me...I'd rather take something that reduced my chances of a heart attack by 2.2% than play the odds that I'm going to be one of the 97.8% who wouldn't benefit. My father died from a heart attack at age 47, so I'm rather cautious when it comes to cardiac risk factors.

BTW - something the slate article doesn't address is the cost-benefit ratio. Treating 100 people to prevent 2 heart attacks is likely to be a very good deal if you compare the costs of the drug treatments to the medical costs involved with treating a heart attack.
well, instead of taking statins, you can go get yourself a CT Angiogram to find out if you are even at risk. It's non-invasive and takes about 15 minutes.
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Old 10-19-06, 11:19 AM
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Originally Posted by mrfreddy
well, instead of taking statins, you can go get yourself a CT Angiogram to find out if you are even at risk. It's non-invasive and takes about 15 minutes.
Do you have links to any studies showing that CT Angiograms are more effective than statins at preventing heart attacks? They're not without risk you know (they are, after all, X-rays).

The Slate article said that statins reduce heart attack risk in a population by 2.2%. That's fairly significant in terms of the cost to society.

Presumably, the manufacturers of medical imaging devices have a vested interest in promoting their technologies as another way to reduce the incidence of cardiovascular disease. But, I've not seen anything (yet) to indicate that they are as effective within a broad population as statins.

Last edited by SSP; 10-19-06 at 11:26 AM.
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