Ric we all like to be right. Especially when we feel deep down that we are right. However, the parameters you keep talking about are for higher level riders. Those who are just beginning, or go on "fun rides" of a few miles could benefit from a weight program. I do know that as stated before a successful long-distance runner from my area was told he needed to be on a weight training program. It wasn't meant to put on bulk as that would not be beneficial, but he was told to do exercises to put on lean muscle mass. It would make him a stronger runner, and allow him to rely on his pure running ability more in the later stages of the race if things were close. Instead of having to try to gut it out, he could lean on the fact that he had strengthened his legs and can put more into the finishing sprint if he needs to. Unfortunuately, those who concentrate on a single sport such as cycling or running don't ever think they need a weight program. I'm not saying everyone should be on a weight program, I just think that it works for some people. I know it worked for me, and I know it worked for some of my friends. That is all I know for sure. I don't know what it will do for a complete stranger 100 miles away. I just don't think you can completely write off something like this initially. If things don't work out it's not like you can't quit. People quit things all the time. I just don't think things should be eliminated as training options just because a certain number of people responded negatively to it. Because everyone is built differently, different things work for different people. I am not advocating strength training for everyone in every sport. I am saying that some people who feel compelled to lift might want to try it to see how it helps them. If they feel more confident by strengthening their leg muscles and adding lean muscle to them, it may be a psychological advantage more than anything. Yet, it is still an advantage they have. They will be less prone to doubt themselves, and maybe push harder because they just "know" they can.

Since I don't exactly have the stuff in front of me, I just consulted a friend of mine that works with folks of the Chris Carmichael standard. I shot off a letter, summarized both sides, gave the researchers and the names of the authorities I've based my opinions on, and summarized Ric Stern's information so he has an idea of what Ric believes. When I get a response, I'll post it. I still have been a bit too busy to pull out the stuff I've been talking about- just been out all day, teaching my cycling classes, and working, but at some point, I'll get my stuff together too.

Koffee

i don't understand who you've written too? someone who works for CTS, or someone who is the standard of CC?

ric

i said that there'd be no benefit to trained riders, you're correct.

i said that weights would help these people -- i also stated that *any* exercise would be just as beneficial

additionally, and most importantly, these groups of people are often very time limited (e.g., with work/family/school/etc.) and by taking time away from cycling (and doing another exercise) there will be less cycling improvement. in other words, if you're time limited then really concentrate on riding your bike (of course, that's if you want to get better at riding a bike, if on the other hand you're just interested in being generally fit, then continue to do various different exercise modalities).

as far as i'm aware, we're talking about cycling. mechaisms for adaptations are different between the two modalities, such that weights may well help running in trained runners but not because it makes them stronger.


for cycling they don't (to become a better cyclist)

why bother doing it in the first place? i had a friend that would hit his legs the day before a race with a frying pan, he was convinced it improved his performance. why not do that? i don't think you can write that off, he always did well.


to me this infers that you mean only a minority of people responded negatively, when in fact it's every study that's used trained cyclists. we already know that in low fitness groups any exercise is able to cause an aerobic adaptation

on the other hand, why should i not present the facts as they are, so that people can make an informed decision as to whether or not they should bother in the first place, and waste their time?

ric

Someone who is the standard of CC. But he also knows CC, so maybe he'll consult him too. I guess it'll depend on how much time he has to spare! Besides that, I wrote quite a long email to him, since I promised him I would tell him about my cycling trip, plus give him the latest gossip and stuff! I'll give him a week.

Regardless, I still understand your premise, but I don't agree, Ric. I also know you said the coaches are changing their training styles based on the research you and yours are doing, but I haven't seen any mention of your research, including with USA Cycling, and they certify every cycling coach in the USA. USA Cycling sides with Joe Friel and Tudor O. Bompa, both of whom advocate using periodized training programs that incorporate strength training as well as cardiovascular training for all cyclists. Now, since we know there are different kinds of races, (ie track vs. tours), there is a specific method advocated to train athletes, and that includes the type and duration of strength training, but nonetheless, strength training is still emphasized.

Either it is, or I'm on crack and reading it all wrong. I'll let you know. I have to admit, though, I did not attend any lectures this year. Maybe things have changed, but as I sit here perusing through the materials sent to me by USA Cycling, there is nothing here to indicate that what Ric says is followed by this certifying body.

Koffee

I have absolutely no professional training as a coach or trainer and have never even read any of Chris Carmichael’s training articles. Obviously he is an authority on cycling training for competition, but I just don’t have the time to read those wordy articles!

That being said, at this point in my cycling life, at age 47 I can say that I feel weight training has helped me to be a better cyclist. For the last 3 years I have been on a ‘comeback’ after racing and training heavily from 1987 to 1995, then sort-of falling off the wagon while coaching a zillion rec-league team sports with my kids. In the ‘falling off’ period I rode my bike now and then and gained almost 30 lbs.

A big part of the ‘comeback’ effort is weight training in the months of December through February with indoor trainer efforts and outdoor riding (weather permitting) mixed in.

All I can say is at 6’4” tall and 200 lbs, I am within 5 lbs of my racing weight of 1991 and almost as fast. I ride slightly smaller gears on long climbs now and pack a 39/25 which would have gotten me laughed at back in the day…

I think the weight training helps with power and if nothing else, gives one something to do at the gym when you cant’ ride!

I wieght train 3 days a week been doing it 5 years now and riding 2. I work out 3 days a week I work my Chest and tris one day, back and bis next than legs on the third day. The only thing that changes in my routine is legs. I do only 3 sets of six reps Squats with calf raises, strait leg deads, pull throughs. I do abs this day as well wieghted side bends [ heavy] hanging leg lifts with wieght between my knees.

Ric, you said that any excercise would be beneficial for sedentary people. My friend who only does short rides of the 5-10 mile variety also runs and lifts. The lifting has benefited his cycling as well as the running. The lifting gave him the extra strength in the legs to complete accelerations uphill, and the running helped trim him down and improve his endurance. Ric, I am tired of simply arguing. You have your respectable opinion and I have mine. I am not a professional coach, but I don't think I would want a coach that isn't willing to explore other areas of opportunity than simply his own. I do know that I log over 120 miles on my bike weekly, and I lift at least 4 days a week. That includes box squats, squats, straight leg deadlifts, and the like. As for the arguing, it's over. I dislike the squabling over two different opinions simply because they find eachother unacceptable. How about this? You respect my opinion, and I conversely respect yours?

Do a Pub-Med search the evidence is there for all to see, i.e., no evidence for improved performance in trained endurance (as opposed to track sprint) cyclists, improvements with weights or any exercise in non trained cyclists.

alternatively, read this thread, https://www.cyclingforums.com/t126133.html or similar ones on that forum. there's even a Carmichael coach there (on one of the threads) although he isn't able to demonstrate or provide evidence that weights are beneficial in trained cyclists.

ric

i said untrained, which this rider fits into.

i'd be upset if it hadn't. it should have.

who is arguing, which to me infers raised voices and anger. i'm simply discussing and dissemenating the facts?

who says i don't explore areas, i use weight training with certain riders?

ric

We've got a couple of guys down here who are ex body builder types, one guy we call the incredible hulk. He's not much of a threat in a road race, but when he comes out of that last corner in a crit, he can sprint like a demon. Maybe weight training doesn't help for efforts more than 90 seconds, but many a race is won and lost in the last 90 seconds.

Sprints, acclerations out of corners, small hills on a circuit race, are all efforts less than 90 seconds, but all make a difference in the outcome of a race.

Keep up the weight work, work you core too, abs and back etc. Just not with a lot of weight. Stretch, Be an athlete first, then a cyclist. It's healthier.

although these may all be less than 90-secs, recovery from any of them is entirely and totally dependent on aerobic metabolism. in other words, all you have to do is go hard enough during these efforts, and then instead of easing up you continue to make it slightly longer effort, or another hill or corner or whatever comes up and someone who doesn't have an equal or better aerobic system will get shelled

ric

Your training in squats, deadlifts and leg extensions will be very helpful in the off season (if you take one). When I'm on the last portion of a good ride there is something that weight training gives you that other training does not.....discipline to reach way down inside and keep going. Squatting moderate to light-heavy weights will help with this. Do you recall Eric Heiden of the winter olympic speed skating team (usa) a few years back? His legs were huuuuuge. Biking and squatting.

When you go into a steep incline you'll have what it takes to keep going because you dug down into the pain zone with those leg extensions.

Weight training has it's place for the ordinary individual that likes to do something in the winter that will carry over into summer biking fun.

(As a 181 in powerlifting, age 39 I could squat 525-535lbs in competition, do triples with 475....these are "real" squats that go below parallel)

Olds

Thats true, but if you have 2 athletes, with equal aerobic systems, and one has more peak power, the more powerful rider can go faster when it matters most no? Are there any studies which would show a reduction in aerobic capability due to weight training?

weights *will* increase peak power (that's 5-sec all-out efforts), however, it will be at the expense of your aerobic system. additionally, for endurance riders (i.e., not 200-m, 500-m, 1-km, olympic sprint, etc on the track) peak power can be equally and possibly better trained via riding (i.e., doing sprint training).

as you increase muscle mass - hypertrophy (increased muscle cross sectional area) which occurs from weight training and provides a true increase in strength (as opposed to neuromuscular adaptations), there will be a decrease in muscle capillary density and muscle mitochondrial density, which will both mean a decrease in aerobic and anaerobic performance. you will also have more weight to lug uphill with no corresponding increase in power, and this will make you slower all-round

ric

Any response yet? I find this discussion very interesting.

Personally, I've been cycling ~3000 miles a year since ’89 and weight training over the winter for 10 years or so. We have a 4 year old daughter, so my exercise time has been limited lately. I do some racing, but prefer our fast club rides to driving 2-4 hours to race for 1-2 hours.

Last year, I minimized my aerobic work in favor of weight training and plyometrics. My thought, with limited time, was to increase strength over the winter and work on endurance/aerobic conditioning out on the road when it was more enjoyable.

On our club rides, I can get up short hills near the front, but repetitive or long hills at high effort seem to kill me every time. All power leaves my muscles and it takes several minutes to recover.

One of my best years recently was when I took a “performance” spinning class over the winter with my wife. Certainly, there are many factors to consider, but this discussion is leading me back to focus on aerobic conditioning over the winter.

Anyway, keep the comments coming, I might just learn something!

-murray

wheeeeeeeeeew...what a thread!
I'm beat!

"as you increase muscle mass - hypertrophy (increased muscle cross sectional area) which occurs from weight training and provides a true increase in strength (as opposed to neuromuscular adaptations), there will be a decrease in muscle capillary density and muscle mitochondrial density, which will both mean a decrease in aerobic and anaerobic performance. you will also have more weight to lug uphill with no corresponding increase in power, and this will make you slower all-round"

Rick,

Ive been following thes thread quite closley and so far its pretty interesting. How Quantifiable are the differences?? can somone give a percentage? a time difference? or some other real world value?

Another thing is you refer to " a trained rider" at what point is a rider considered trained as opposed to untrained?? again is this able to measured in the real world or is it based on somones oppinion

These arent having a go at you, or anyone else, however i just see them as being important to understand where you and others are comming from.

you can't give differences here because it will differ for different ability levels, and different terrain

within the reseacrh "trained" does vary a little, but generally refers to at least a low level of racing or similar ability, i.e., 4th category (or if you don't race -- you'd be trained if you could keep up with 4th cats).

of course though, if you race track sprint (e.g., 200-m, 500-m TT, 1-km TT, etc) then weights are good for you

ric

I still can't help but think that weight training has helped me at least a bit. If you lift for sheer weight, then you're right your endurance will go down. I know guys that can bench press 280 lbs, but they can't do 180 8 times. I think if you do high reps your muscle endurance will benefit in at least a small way. I can do upwards of 20 repetitions of 325 lbs doing full squats. This has become a lighter weight to me. I just think that it is necessary for me to be stronger because I weigh about 180. At 5-6% body fat, there isn't a lot of room to lose weight. Despite my weight, I have no trouble completing long climbs at a decent speed. I do a 2.5 mile climb at 6-9% gradients along the way, never shift out of the big chainring up front, and never let my cadence drop below 80. I don't think I'd be able to do this if i had never lifted a weight. I would probably only weigh about 145 lbs like I did my freshman year, but who's to know how good of a cyclist I would have been? And who's to know if I would have stayed that small I may have naturally developed bigger. I just think that weight lifting has benefited me. That's all.

only your "endurance" at weight training

this has nothing whatsoever, to do with strength - which is the maximal force or tension a muscle or group of muscles can generate - and everything to do with aerobic power

ric

Ric, I did the Pub-Med search, and when I inserted your name, there were no hits at all. Any other places to look?

No comprehensive explanation from my friend as of yet. Unfortunately, he just moved and between the traveling he does for his company and the people he trains, and moving, he said he wouldn't be around much online unless he's in a place where he could steal time on a computer. We will see each other at Interbike though.

I did speak to Robbie Ventura, and he said that the US Postal DOES weight train- all of them. They weight train in the off season, but when they start the training rides, the weight training part of their program ends, and they focus primarily on the riding aspect. What they do for weights and how much weight they use depends on what they specialize in (hill climbing, sprinting, long distance tours). He looked at me crazy at the idea that there's no weight training involved.

Koffee

maybe i worded it bad... when i said check pub-med for evidence i didn't mean for my work (that's obviously going to say what i've been saying here, i am, afterall, hardly likely to contradict myself!). what i meant was check pub-med for the evidence of weights and endurance performance, and you won't find an increase in performance with trained cyclists.

lots of TT1 riders don't weight train. the point i was making is that weights don't increase performance (in trained endurance cyclists), aren't likely too, and there'd be no real reason to think they would (excluding in some instances of injured riders).

pros (and amateurs) do all sorts of things, good, bad, and downright stupid. it doesn't mean you should copy them!

ric

You know at first I didn't see Ric's side of this at all but I do think he makes some very good points with the key one being you are already strong enough ya just need to last longer.

Lifting light weights to get strong is like riding slow to get faster. Inefficient.

I have used a power lifting program, developed by the worlds strongest drug free man.

You use a real slow warm up, and then do six sets of four reps with about 80 % of your max lift.

Caution squats can destroy you. Very quickly. The spotters lift the weight off you after you have been injured.

Do leg presses. Muscles do not slow you down, they move you. The give you all of your motion. Gravity will not stand you back up.

Do two months of weight work in the off season, and you will be stronger and faster. Eat a little more protien, and, if you are very lucky, you may gain a pound in each leg. Get a PT, and let them show you the correct way.

The strength leaves about the same speed as it comes. That is why NFL teams lift all season. If not, the players will be at their weakest at the most important time.

You will never have tree trunk legs.