I visited your link. That really took me back! In the late 60s and early 70s a common greeting was, "What are you eating?" rather than "How are you doing?" I ate enough raw steel cut oats for breakfast to gag a herd of horses, enough raw lunches and dinners to forever compromise my digestive system, did enough juice fasts, and made enough alkalinizing soups to last me the rest of my life. I tell ya, we aren't built to eat a lot of raw onions. So been there, done that over 40 years ago. But enjoy yourself. I'm sure my grandparents couldn't have dissuaded me from what I was doing, either.

However, and this is a big however, it is now very dangerous to eat raw meat like some on your link advocate. Don't do it.

Durianrider in no way advocates eating raw meat, he actually speaks out against it quite often. Don't know where you saw the raw meat vid but it wasn't from him. Another tip, raw onions aren't that healthy... Durianrider is all about 80/10/10 Raw vegan which is a fruitarian based diet

+1 on this book. Goes into a great deal of detail about the relationship between agribusiness and the regulatory agencies (FDA and USDA).

I've been mostly vegetarian for seven or eight years now, and don't think it's especially hard to get enough protein. Grains, legumes, nuts, dairy. Chocolate. I usually bring a Clif bar or two along on a ride. My wife does weightlifting and likes whey powder, but not soy powder.

Another vote here for this general advice, on the grounds that it seems to go along with my experience (I'm a vegetarian guy, aged 40, cycling approx 10 - 16 hours a week, veggie for 20+ years, I don't expect to win races but I do expect to finish near the top for my age).
I have one additional hunch to pass on - I think (but can't possibly prove or explain) that timing of protein intake might be useful to consider.
For example, when I do a long and/or hard workout (80+ miles, or a lot of work near my max heart rate) I think my recovery is much shorter if I gulp protein immediately afterwards, rather than several hours later. Also, I think I go better when I've started with a protein-rich meal in the morning (= eggs for breakfast).
Conclusion: protein just before and just afterwards seems to help my stamina as well as recovery. I'd be interested in hearing comments from others on timing of nutrients.
Jason

Cooljase and several others make a good point as to why we need more protein than normal growing and aging people. We bike sometimes for hours on end. We try to burn off fat, strengthen our C/V system and stay strong. +1 on Cooljase's attitude, winning isn't the point, being able to give your best is the point. As riders we burn more and want to do better.

I am just re-entering the biking world. (55yo, desk bound) I have enjoyed this give and take. I am at a point where I want to continue loosing weight and spinning better. From what I get, 25g of protien before a ride in a fruit smoothie, followed by one at the finish is good? Complex carbs and protien is good mid ride. Am I on the right track?

I have found the same thing. I put a half scoop of soy protein powder on my granola in the morning, and after a 2 or more hour ride often have a recovery drink made from OJ and whey protein. The small amount of protein before a ride seems to make the fuel last longer, and the protein and carbs after help recovery.

There's quite a bit of research showing that protein with your post ride carbs helps to speed glycogen storage. That is useful if you are doing another long/hard ride the next day. (this is where the highly marketed 3:1 ratio comes from although other ratios work as well). I also think that the shot of protein helps muscle recovery.

Infancy is the stage in your life when you grow the most rapidly, protein is for supporting growing. We don't need more protein then a baby, percentage wise, and there is absolutely no science to back up that we do.

You can continue to waste your money on protein supplements but I'll stick to the way nature intended.

Didn't the OPs question deal with vegetarian nutrition? Perhaps the above should read, "I'm an omnivore who considers himself to be a vegetarian...." Eggs for breakfast, indeed. What's for lunch, duck?

Uh, some vegetarians eat eggs and milk. An unfertilized chicken egg is not really a living thing, in my opinion as a vegetarian. Lots of people are vegetarian for different reasons, and those reasons usually impact the where they draw the line.

For me, my rule of thumb has always been that if I can ask the animal nicely, or shake it gently and receive the food product, then its OK. No death involved, see.

I do make sure that my eggs, milk, cheese (rennet free) and honey are ethically sourced though. I grew up on a farm and know that animals can be treated well and live good lives while still providing milk, eggs, and honey. I pay more for shopping outside the commercial food industry, but I'm OK with that.

I found a few themes in this thread common to what I have found to be helpful if you are a female vegetarian who is trying to add muscle--an almost impossible task! (I'm working on that very same task, yet I also eat fish so it may be slightly easier in my case.)

First, the suggestion for Greek yogurt is excellent. Not only is it a more protein-dense product than typical American-style yogurts, Greek yogurts also have a whole lot less 'mystery' ingredients. My favorite brand is Chobani--very good stuff.

Second, adding protein powder to your granola (or even your oatmeal) is really great. I take this one step further and make my own home baked granola and include the protein powder in the ingredients so it's baked right into the mix. This way I can control the sugars and fats too. A lot of granolas have tons of sugars--not good if you need to get more calories from protein sources.

Finally, adding a few supplements has been really noticeable for me. I take Flora Vital (a liquid iron supplement with added vitamin B's--made from "flowers"). I really notice a boost in energy. I also cycle other supplements like creatine for muscle gain and HMB to prevent muscle loss. I find these very effective and I haven't experienced the negative side effects that others claim (some people report bloating with creatine--there haven't been any negative side effects in studies of HMB). When I start the creatine cycle I never do the loading phase--I just take the maintenance dose and I break it up between 2 to 3 times per day. And, I always take the creatine with a simple sugar--but never with any other supplements. Men who work on endurance training may not see any benefit from creatine, but women athletes can perform year-round strength training without any detriment--we just don't bulk up.

Recently, I did read a single, non-peer reviewed, study indicating that women who work on building up leg muscle mass in addition to regular competitive cycling training don't actually see an improvement in cycling performance--their performance is the same as women in a competitive cycling-only training group. But, the flip side is, it won't hurt! Performance results were the exact same for both groups. And it'll definitely help down the road when we're old and frail and don't want to have to fear breaking a hip :)

I don't really know much about nutrition, but using a baby's nutrition requirements as a % of their calorie intake to gauge an adult's requirements doesn't seem all that sound to me. I'm under the impression that a baby's composition and daily activities are quite different than an athlete's. I guess even at first guess going by a baby's protein intake/ body weight even sounds a bit better than protein/calories, but not all that good.

You said it yourself you have no idea about nutrition and you clearly have no idea how the growth of the human body works. So let me explain it for you cus you clearly don't get it.

Growth rate at infancy is the fastest of any time in a human life, protien is for building tissue, muscles and general growth. Understanding this you can see protien needs would be higher then a full grown adult who has little to no growth needs except for maybe a little muscle gain. Ask any doctor who actually knows how the human body works and they will tell you the same, Infants have the highest protien need per calorie of any growth stage in the human life.

Breast milk, the perfect baby food, is about 6%. Knowing this you can easily come to the assumption that most full grown adults need somewhere around 2-6%, anymore and you are just overloading your body with extra protien it doesn't need. this can lead to many problems.

Going back to the OP's post -

We've been discussing a lot of things. We haven't talked too much about the OP's goal of riding cross state bike rides (plural)! And good on her. I think most of us agree that some whey protein in the morning and evening is a good idea. A buddy of mine swears by a recovery meal of steak and wine, but that's out of the question here. And I think her real preference is steak, chocolate, and wine.

There's also the bigger question of eating underway on all-day rides. Here's my .02: Ensure Plus! If you drink a can about every other hour, that should about do it. Otherwise, just water and Endurolytes. Check the label for ingredients and percentages - that's where you'll get most of your protein. And I've never heard of a rider barfing it up. Very popular on killer rides like the Furnace Creek 508 and RAAM. This year's 508 winner drank 16 cans in about 24 hours. It's not too hard to carry a couple cans with you, and refill in towns because almost every grocery store has it. Try it in training as your rides get longer in the spring.

I guess I find that sounds too simplistic. It could very well be right. But if the calories/weight requirements for babies are higher than adults, wouldn't that mean that at "normal" caloric intake, babies would be getting more protein than an adult eating a "normal" amount of calories at 6% protein?
I guess it doesn't seem self evident to make the conclusion you're making to me, based on the little I know, and what I've read in this thread.

This is kind of amusing since since kwashiorkor and marsamus *supports* my point, rather than the other way around. Those diseases are the result of *insufficient food* (i.e., starvation), which goes to what I was saying: Generally if you get enough calories, you get enough protein. As long as you're not starving, you're not going to suffer from a starvation-related disease. People not hungry from poverty or famine don't get kwashiorkor or marsamus. (If you have evidence to the contrary, I'm sure we'd all like to see it.)

Okay, then where are the numbers, from official sources, showing that the amount of plant protein we actually absorb is insufficient? The figures I provided, from official sources, show that vegetables have about *three times* more protein than we need. Are you suggesting that we can extract only 33% or less of available protein from plant foods? Does any source anywhere make such an outrageous claim?

I'm afraid this is a straw man argument. I never suggested anyone eat only spinach, or any other one food, and neither did anyone else. The point of using one food as an *example* is to show that even *if* one ate only a single unrefined vegetable, grain, or bean, they'd get all the amino acids they needed -- again, according to official sources.

Also, your 2g per kg figure is absolutely not an official recommendation. What the World Health Organization actually says is 0.66 g/kg as an average requirement, and 0.83 g/kg to cover the 97.5th percentile. Further, the WHO says that increasing protein consumption beyond what's necessary doesn't increase muscle mass. "Thus Lemon et al. (30) fed protein at 2.62 g/kg per day or 1.35 g/kg per day for 1 month during intensive weight training in a randomized double-blind cross-over study, and found no difference in measured strength (voluntary and electrically evoked) and muscle mass (density, creatinine excretion, muscle area by CAT scan, and biceps nitrogen content)."

Source?

This article suggests that vegetarians are more health-conscious as a group than the average joe, making them healthier as a group--so it's a chicken & egg argument:

Proc Nutr Soc. 2006 Feb;65(1):35-41.
Health effects of vegetarian and vegan diets.

Key TJ, Appleby PN, Rosell MS.
Cancer Research UK Epidemiology Unit, University of Oxford, Richard Doll Building. tim.key@ceu.ox.ac.uk
Vegetarian diets do not contain meat, poultry or fish; vegan diets further exclude dairy products and eggs. Vegetarian and vegan diets can vary widely, but the empirical evidence largely relates to the nutritional content and health effects of the average diet of well-educated vegetarians living in Western countries, together with some information on vegetarians in non-Western countries. In general, vegetarian diets provide relatively large amounts of cereals, pulses, nuts, fruits and vegetables. In terms of nutrients, vegetarian diets are usually rich in carbohydrates, n-6 fatty acids, dietary fibre, carotenoids, folic acid, vitamin C, vitamin E and Mg, and relatively low in protein, saturated fat, long-chain n-3 fatty acids, retinol, vitamin B(12) and Zn; vegans may have particularly low intakes of vitamin B(12) and low intakes of Ca. Cross-sectional studies of vegetarians and vegans have shown that on average they have a relatively low BMI and a low plasma cholesterol concentration; recent studies have also shown higher plasma homocysteine concentrations than in non-vegetarians. Cohort studies of vegetarians have shown a moderate reduction in mortality from IHD but little difference in other major causes of death or all-cause mortality in comparison with health-conscious non-vegetarians from the same population. Studies of cancer have not shown clear differences in cancer rates between vegetarians and non-vegetarians. More data are needed, particularly on the health of vegans and on the possible impacts on health of low intakes of long-chain n-3 fatty acids and vitamin B(12). Overall, the data suggest that the health of Western vegetarians is good and similar to that of comparable non-vegetarians.

For specific health related issues (in this case Rheumatoid arthritis) a Vegan diet is actually recommended over all other diets:

- Kjeldsen-Kragh J. Rheumatoid arthritis treated with vegetarian diets. Am J Clin Nutr. 1999;70:594S-600S.
- Kjeldsen-Kragh J, Haugen M, Borchgrevink CF, et al. Controlled trial of fasting and one-year vegetarian diet in rheumatoid arthritis. Lancet. 1991;338:899,902
- Nenonen M, Helve T, Hanninen O. Effects of uncooked vegan food "living food" on rheumatoid arthritis, a three-month controlled and randomised study. Am J Clin Nutr. 1992;56:762.

There are a few small studies showing Vegan diets improve other conditions, but nothing as positive as the improvements with arthritis. Cancer is still up in the air--it seems that most studies show that eating lots of organic vegetables are of benefit whether meat is eaten or not. Typically, smaller, organic growers can produce healthier produce because the soil is more fertile and plant varieties are not limited to those that produce the most per acre (see In Defense of Food, Pollan, M.).

yummy, peanut butter is amazing but very easy to Overdose on hahaha, it is very calorie dense so becareful and dont eat half the jar in one sitting like i have.

Just joined up and startwd reading some threads. I'm suprised no one has mentioned quinoa. The only plant food that contains ALL essential amino acids in one easily digested source. It also has a nearly ideal ratio of fat, carbs and protein. And it tastes good and is also a good source of fiber. It's probably the world's most perfect food.

I thought soy was a plant source of complete proteins as well.

I'm no vegetarian but I have recently been knocking up some quinoa porridge for breakfast and have found it very good indeed. For me, it sustains me longer than oatmeal (possibly due to the protein content). Haven't tried it before a ride yet though.

No, nearly pretty much EVERY plant food has all the essential amino acids (you can see that clearly in the USDA Food & Nutrient Database), and in nearly every plant food besides fruit, the amino acid pattern is "complete". This is explained clearly in the article referenced way back in post #6. Here it is again: https://michaelbluejay.com/veg/protein.html

Depends on what you mean by "complete protein". According to wikipedia:
"A complete protein (or whole protein) is a source of protein that contains an adequate proportion of all of the essential amino acids for the dietary needs of humans or other animals. [1] This does not refer to the protein source only containing all the essential amino acids, but also containing them in complete proportion for use by the human body. A source may contain all essential amino acids, but contain one in lower proportion to the others, making it an incomplete protein."

I don't know what the generally accepted meaning is though.

bingo , certain foods are low in certain amino acids, thus they are deemed incomplete. It doesn't mean they don't have them.

Geez, guys, you think you might care to read the article in question before arguing against it? My point is, vegetables contain all the amino acids and in the proportions we need. Here's the article again, for the third time: https://michaelbluejay.com/veg/protein.html

Hmm, according to the site you're linking, it doesn't look to me like the amino acids are in the "proportions we need", but I'm not sure what benchmark to go by (I don't know what the proportions of something considered a complete protein are). Looking at the first item in the list, it looks to me like brown rice is weak in lysine, and overly strong in "Phenylalaline
+Tyrosine".