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Newbie Intolerant...

Old 09-03-19, 05:27 AM
  #51  
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Originally Posted by randyjawa View Post
Wow! Though I do try to not be long winded, here goes...
Your intentions are honorable and well-placed, Randy.

But give it up. The forum mods and the majority of the forum participants do not concur.

-Kurt
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Old 09-03-19, 05:29 AM
  #52  
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Originally Posted by RobbieTunes View Post
Most of the mods are volunteers, so I don't mind the rule.
I followed it, and if it makes the mods' job easier, OK by me. We do need the mods.

I did enjoy when photo posting could be "right from your computer,"
but having to have the photo in some url does keep me from posting too many.

Sort of.
I post photos right from the computer? Here's one:



I use the little picture frame icon in the message window frame.

The 10 post thing doesn't seem like to big of a hurdle. For the record, Bike Forums is absolutely the most civil and helpful place I've ever been on the internet, especially the C&V section. I've met and become friends with a few people here and look forward to meeting/riding with more. For me, the best part of being on BF C&V is learning about something I'm passionate about and not being ridiculed as being weird for "putting that much money in a bike" or riding further than most people want to drive a car

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Old 09-03-19, 05:30 AM
  #53  
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your intentions are honorable and well-placed, randy.

but give it up.

-kurt
ok.
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Old 09-03-19, 06:07 AM
  #54  
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Originally Posted by randyjawa View Post
I built my website to help others avoid spending too much money, time and effort when street restoring a vintage bicycle. Bike Forums, particularly the Classic and Vintage forum, should also, and is, helpful to others, with one important exception - BF is not newbie friendly. Let me explain...

Many people, no everyone, come here, for the first time, seeking information regarding this bike or that bike that they want to sell or just bought. We, the notnewbies, politely insist on photos, and rightfully so, to assist with appraisals and/or identifications.

Without ten posts, the person seeking information is, well, not getting much for a while. Ten posts, and I understand the need for scam prevention, is not newbie friendly. So, does anyone have any ideas that might help find a way for the new comers to share pics faster, facilitating their needs and helping us to do the same thing?

My thought was, when a newbie attempts to post a picture, he or she can be linked to a page that will offer the opportunity to get "fully active" quickly. I really don't know much about making websites, and new information technology, but I do know a pain in the butt, when I encounter one. My question, or intent, is to ask other members if they might have an idea to make the newbie firewall go away?

Sorry, this is one thing that I do not have a picture for:-(
If you are so concerned about it you could ask the mods to post a sticky that offers your services as a newbie customer service specialist. The newbies can all pm or email you their pics and info and you could then relay it onto the forum with your account.
Problem solved, crisis averted
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Old 09-03-19, 07:34 AM
  #55  
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I like the idea of a newbie/pic guideline sticky explaining the whys/hows.
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Old 09-03-19, 08:42 AM
  #56  
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Originally Posted by randyjawa View Post
Sorry, this is one thing that I do not have a picture for:-(
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Old 09-03-19, 09:16 AM
  #57  
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Goodness there is a lot of bitterness showing thru in this thread. Its a forum- it isnt 'ours' and 'they' should be quite welcome to use it how 'they' see fit.

C&V runs a wide spectrum. Some only want bikes that are original spec, performance be damned. Some like the history. Some enjoy mixing modern with classic.
In a similar fashion, some users want to show off their bikes. Some users want to talk about 'the good old days'. And some want info on their bikes.


Seems like all uses can exist here, but boy its clear some are quite bitter about it.
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Old 09-03-19, 09:28 AM
  #58  
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As someone who up until yesterday (or was it the day before?) was caught by the "10 post rule", I'm gonna chime in. First, I spent a lot of time lurking and reading posts and finding information here well before I joined--I think I was looking up information on my previous bike here almost a year ago. I specifically chose my "new" bike because of the information in C&V forums.

Yes, it was slightly annoying, but I figure if I was committed to getting a bike that needed work and learning more about cycling, I was going to have to join a community like this. Honestly, when I call my uncle now he answers with, "so what's your bike problem now?" Had I purchased a new bike, I could call the LBS, but because mine are both vintage, I don't have that option.

I can understand why you have the rule. I think it encourages participation and allows new people to get to know the site a little and have some small commitment to the forum before they can post pictures. Really, if someone is committed to getting their question answered or posting pictures or getting assistance, posting 10 times is a lot less time consuming than digging through a google search and potentially not finding what they are looking for anyway.
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Old 09-03-19, 09:33 AM
  #59  
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Originally Posted by TriBiker19 View Post
As someone who up until yesterday (or was it the day before?) was caught by the "10 post rule", I'm gonna chime in. First, I spent a lot of time lurking and reading posts and finding information here well before I joined--I think I was looking up information on my previous bike here almost a year ago. I specifically chose my "new" bike because of the information in C&V forums.

Yes, it was slightly annoying, but I figure if I was committed to getting a bike that needed work and learning more about cycling, I was going to have to join a community like this. Honestly, when I call my uncle now he answers with, "so what's your bike problem now?" Had I purchased a new bike, I could call the LBS, but because mine are both vintage, I don't have that option.

I can understand why you have the rule. I think it encourages participation and allows new people to get to know the site a little and have some small commitment to the forum before they can post pictures. Really, if someone is committed to getting their question answered or posting pictures or getting assistance, posting 10 times is a lot less time consuming than digging through a google search and potentially not finding what they are looking for anyway.
Welcome and thanks for the input.
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Old 09-03-19, 10:36 AM
  #60  
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Originally Posted by Rollfast View Post
We already have that, it's called the terms of service or whatever. It's all there, and usually the only thing nobody reads.
Well, I was thinking something less formal that covers the unwritten rules and/or preferences of the community. If I have time I'll take a crack at it and see what folks think. Maybe called something like "If you're new to classic/vintage bikes, please read this before posting."

The intent, I guess, would be to preserve norms that make this website a pleasant place to exchange information, ideas, and pics. Norms vs rules.
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Old 09-03-19, 11:14 AM
  #61  
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Originally Posted by clubman View Post
The rule is fine imo. Robbie, you can upload from your computer by opening the manage attachments dialogue.
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Old 09-03-19, 11:33 AM
  #62  
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Originally Posted by noobinsf View Post
Well, I was thinking something less formal that covers the unwritten rules and/or preferences of the community. If I have time I'll take a crack at it and see what folks think. Maybe called something like "If you're new to classic/vintage bikes, please read this before posting."

The intent, I guess, would be to preserve norms that make this website a pleasant place to exchange information, ideas, and pics. Norms vs rules.
Respectfully...asking someone to read a bunch of rules before posting isn't as inclusive and welcoming as what I experienced when I first joined here. Putting the onus on "them" is the issue the OP is calling out.

It's not my site...and I love it here as is. That said, if we're talking about it, I think it does give newbies the cold shoulder, and I don't think a list of rules really helps that.
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Old 09-03-19, 11:56 AM
  #63  
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As someone who as a mod on a different forum before the bots were as much of a thing, I can't imagine what it's like to deal with that today. On the other hand, the forum I was on eventually died even though it had a name as closely tied to its sport as bikeforums.net (though the sport didn't have quite the potential audience size). At the end, it was just like 4 of us chatting around a campfire as the lights went off. I get the desire to get rid of spam, but I also get the fear of the main audience of C&V aging out and not being replaced (though hopefully that will take a while).
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Old 09-03-19, 12:17 PM
  #64  
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Originally Posted by mstateglfr View Post
Goodness there is a lot of bitterness showing thru in this thread... boy its clear some are quite bitter.
Hmm... I reread the thread, but I must have again missed all this "bitterness" you're talking about.

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Old 09-03-19, 12:18 PM
  #65  
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Originally Posted by downhillmaster View Post
The newbies can all pm or email you their pics and info and you could then relay it onto the forum with your account.
Problem solved, crisis averted
Newbies can't use PM either.

Most can upload their photos, but can't post them (and don't realize exactly what is going wrong until they've uploaded them in duplicate or triplicate).

Perhaps a more informative error message, although one doesn't necessarily want to tell spammers about work-arounds either.
Originally Posted by himespau View Post
I get the desire to get rid of spam, but I also get the fear of the main audience of C&V aging out and not being replaced (though hopefully that will take a while).
I'm not convinced that PHOTOS are the problem with SPAM.

I've only aged a couple of years since joining, but the other issue is that people's interests drift. So, there could be a time when I join a Muscle Car group and drop the Bicycle group.

Thus, still the same issue of needing to entice new people to join and participate.
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Old 09-03-19, 01:19 PM
  #66  
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Originally Posted by cb400bill View Post
You guys have no idea. It is more like 99.99%. We used to get hammered by spam bot computers with hundreds, yes hundreds, of automated spams. Most of you never saw it because we have always been quite diligent in removing it. The 10 post rule has made spam much easier to deal with. We still get it, but are able to cut most of it off before you see it. I don't see these rules changing anytime in the future.

Please understand that the moderator and admin staff are unpaid volunteers with real jobs.
Several years back, I was a moderator here, and the size of this site makes it a real target. cb400bill is not exaggerating about the challenges.

That said, there are ways for new folks to effectively use their introductory period that may not be immediately evident:

Of course introducing themselves is a fairly obvious one, but providing some background on how they came to be interested in a C&V bike, or C&V bikes in general will help the folks who have been here make a stronger connection with them than not. (community works both directions, and while we shouldn't expect them to read our minds about what they can do to allow us to be successful in assisting them, realistically, there should be some recognition of there being some learning occurring).

Ok - having started to make a point, I've realized that perhaps we could use a guide to help new folks out. Terminology is a learning curve. Explaining about the rules for limiting posts and pictures would be a help. Perhaps some tips for taking pictures or describing the bike they want help identifying would also help. Explaining why there is a separate valuation sub-forum, and the ratioanle behind rules about sales would be good too.

As I look through our sticky threads, I have to wonder if it wouldn't make sense for there to be a subfolder for "Bicycles manufactured by"(and move the Centurion, Asian Serial Number, and other related threads into the sub-folder), and then to create a new sticky for "Information for the C&V Forum Novice", where we could post the sorts of helpful hints we're discussing here.
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Old 09-03-19, 01:34 PM
  #67  
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Originally Posted by USAZorro View Post
Several years back, I was a moderator here, and the size of this site makes it a real target. cb400bill is not exaggerating about the challenges.

That said, there are ways for new folks to effectively use their introductory period that may not be immediately evident:

Of course introducing themselves is a fairly obvious one, but providing some background on how they came to be interested in a C&V bike, or C&V bikes in general will help the folks who have been here make a stronger connection with them than not. (community works both directions, and while we shouldn't expect them to read our minds about what they can do to allow us to be successful in assisting them, realistically, there should be some recognition of there being some learning occurring).

Ok - having started to make a point, I've realized that perhaps we could use a guide to help new folks out. Terminology is a learning curve. Explaining about the rules for limiting posts and pictures would be a help. Perhaps some tips for taking pictures or describing the bike they want help identifying would also help. Explaining why there is a separate valuation sub-forum, and the ratioanle behind rules about sales would be good too.

As I look through our sticky threads, I have to wonder if it wouldn't make sense for there to be a subfolder for "Bicycles manufactured by"(and move the Centurion, Asian Serial Number, and other related threads into the sub-folder), and then to create a new sticky for "Information for the C&V Forum Novice", where we could post the sorts of helpful hints we're discussing here.
Like Bill said, I really don't know the scope of the problem, or the work that goes on behind the scenes. It's not a democracy...I love the site and appreciate everyone who volunteers here...but I do wonder...if we had more volunteers, would that be an alternate way of fighting spam?
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Old 09-03-19, 01:43 PM
  #68  
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Originally Posted by KonAaron Snake View Post
Like Bill said, I really don't know the scope of the problem, or the work that goes on behind the scenes. It's not a democracy...I love the site and appreciate everyone who volunteers here...but I do wonder...if we had more volunteers, would that be an alternate way of fighting spam?
I'm sure it's far more automated now than it was then. Spam, sock-puppets, rule violations, cleaning up after drunks and jerks, and generally keeping an eye on civility were the main tasks back 8-10 years ago. Life events caused me to fade out when Tom Stormcrowe was the head moderator, and while not everyone who asked to moderate got to, there seemed to be room for folks who were interested who had a reputation for being level-headed and active participants.
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Old 09-03-19, 01:56 PM
  #69  
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I was just an observer on this one but I did not detect any vitriol, animosity, or ill will on this exchange. Hopefully nobody's feelings got hurt. I understand the need for newbies to do 10 posts, altho there are so many other ways now to post / share pics that you don't absolutely need the forum's hosting capabilities.

My biggest suggestion for newbies with technical questions is - fully describe the problem you're having, what you've tried and what components you are working with. I'm a firm believer in the concept of a "minimum data set" - who what why etc - and a clear problem statement as the basis of any troubleshooting effort - especially one where we are working remotely !

with that, we'll bring the combined expertise of the group to bear in helping you resolve your problem ! But help us, help you!

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Old 09-03-19, 01:58 PM
  #70  
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Originally Posted by CliffordK View Post
Newbies can't use PM either.

Most can upload their photos, but can't post them (and don't realize exactly what is going wrong until they've uploaded them in duplicate or triplicate).

Perhaps a more informative error message, although one doesn't necessarily want to tell spammers about work-arounds either.
When you click on the icon to add pictures an error message pops up saying you can't until you have 10 posts. Straightforward is easiest, IMO.

Making it more difficult might curb spammers, but it might turn off newbies.
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Old 09-03-19, 02:40 PM
  #71  
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Originally Posted by SurferRosa View Post
Hmm... I reread the thread, but I must have again missed all this "bitterness" you're talking about.

Read it again, but change the word "bitterness" to "toxicity". Much of what I've seen is a bunch of people who think they're important complaining about the inconvenience of helping people. That attitude probably drives away more good new members than the post-count thing. Randyjawa, so far, is the only person who's come out strongly in favor of helping people, and it was suggested that he is wasting his time. When people like him are in the minority, as they seem to be, things tend not to improve over time. I see more arrogance and entitlement among the high-post-count users than the newbies around here.
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Old 09-03-19, 02:46 PM
  #72  
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Originally Posted by cinco View Post
Read it again, but change the word "bitterness" to "toxicity". Much of what I've seen is a bunch of people who think they're important complaining about the inconvenience of helping people... I see more arrogance and entitlement among the high-post-count users than the newbies around here.
I didn't see much of any of that in this thread either. Maybe one post.

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Old 09-03-19, 02:48 PM
  #73  
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Toxicity. My new word for the day.
I don't mind newbies, but then I'm an oldbie who posts here less and less.

Good grief. I just looked at my post count for the first time in years.
I need to get me some toxicity going.

Hey NEWBIE! Go ahead, ask me a question. I dare ya!
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Old 09-03-19, 03:37 PM
  #74  
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Originally Posted by cinco View Post
Read it again, but change the word "bitterness" to "toxicity". Much of what I've seen is a bunch of people who think they're important complaining about the inconvenience of helping people. That attitude probably drives away more good new members than the post-count thing. Randyjawa, so far, is the only person who's come out strongly in favor of helping people, and it was suggested that he is wasting his time. When people like him are in the minority, as they seem to be, things tend not to improve over time. I see more arrogance and entitlement among the high-post-count users than the newbies around here.
I think you underestimate the hostility people would have if anyone could join and start posting spam links and ads and bullhockey from the get-go.
I would leave if I had to read spam upon opening every thread.

If any comments in my posts in this thread is read as being opposed to newbies - WRONG - it's the abhorrence of spam posts on a site that has served me SO WELL over 15 years. For gosh sakes, 2 days and 10 posts is nothing in the scheme of things. And all the info from every forum is available for free to the World without any commitment.
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Old 09-03-19, 03:40 PM
  #75  
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The term newbie may be offensive to some.
Seems like everything is to someone, these days.

I mean, you can't even point the hose at the kids on your lawn.

When I was new here, I had no problem with the rules.
People here explained them to me, and I followed them.
To me, that is part of this forum's quality: that people will do that.

So, keep the rules, keep the people, keep the quality.
Welcome to the forum. Please post 10 times to be able to upload a pic or send a PM.
Because we want you to participate, and contribute, and stay.
And we're pretty sure, in 10 posts, you'll be answered, and we'll have you hooked.

And then, I'll get you on an Ironman. Just sayin'
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Robbie ♪♫♪...☻
I have unfinished business.


Last edited by RobbieTunes; 09-03-19 at 03:45 PM.
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