Hey, this is the Aussie thread! We can talk about whatever we want.

Anyway, you bastids are making me miss Survivor!! :eek: :D

Matagi, you've obviously thought about this a lot. Have you progressed past the practical machinations of eating less meat and seen the global ramifications of the Western meat based diet? That's the core of the issue, or should be for most vegos or wouldbe vegos. The B12 and Protenin Myths are just that - myths. The core issues involve what a meat based diet is not only doing to our lifestyles, but also how that globally is effecting the rest of the world.

Plus, I kinda think sheep and cows are cute :D

OT - I got asked to design a cow motif bike once. Only just occurred to me that the customer (a hobby farmer) might actually eat them. Yeah, turn something into an icon, then eat it! "I love my cows so much, I desgned my bike after them! Then I rode that bike out into the paddock and shot one in the head! Then I skinned it and ate it! Boy, my bike is COOL!"

See, ya live and learn :rolleyes:

I'm on holidays in a few weeks, and will definitely be grinding down Beach Rd to see what all the fuss is about.
Maybe you should grind up the Dandenongs with the vego's ;) :D

there is a kiwi thread for that sort of behaviour :p

Crikey, another brainwashed vego!! Why don't you just live on raw fruit a fresh air?!!:p

Are you getting any b12 or iron? I hope some of that factory food you eat, bulked up with sawdust and cardboard, is fortified. The frightening thing about b12 deficiencies is that it can take up to 20 years for neural damage to occur; damage which is irreparable. Therefore, b12 is the one vitamin that can't be messed with. There's enough in small amaounts of cows milk.

Like I said earlier, the following info is from VEGAN/VEG WEBSITES, so it's obviously not anti-vegan or anti-veg:

"There are no reliable, unfortified plant sources of vitamin B12, therefore fortified foods and/or supplements are necessary for the optimal health of vegans and even vegetarians in many cases"
http://www.veganhealth.org/sh#vitaminb12

"The only reliable vegan sources of B12 are foods fortified with B12, and B12 supplements."
http://www.vegansociety.com/html/food/nutrition/b12/

"Plant foods do not contain vitamin B12 except when they are contaminated by microorganisms"
http://www.vrg.org/nutrition/b12.htm

"The only reliable unfortified sources of vitamin B12 are meat, dairy products and eggs. There has been considerable research into possible plant food sources of B12. However, analysis of fermented soya products, etc...................found no significant B12."
http://www.vegsoc.org/info/b12.html



is stuff is referenced, the references can be check. All of the Colpo stuff is referenced, as is most of the Western Price stuff.

see what meat can do to a guy kotter? :D

I've got those books here somewhere. The Horne is stuff is basically a more kooky, and totally unreferenced version of Pritikin, and it's also pretty old now. I can't remember what exactly, but some of it is really out there, and made me think he was a bit of a nut :)

OH MY FARKIN GOD. Now I'm actually getting a little mad. Please, dudes; protein, veganism, low carbs, high carbs...whatever, is one thing, but messing with B12 in the long term is dangerous.The b12 FACTS are even on VEGAN WEBSITES!!! See above post.


more stuff from a vegan website:

"Overt B12 Deficiency: B12 protects the nervous system. Without it, permanent damage can result (e.g., blindness, deafness, dementia). Fatigue, and tingling in the hands or feet, can be early signs of deficiency. B12 also keeps the digestive system healthy."

"Mild B12 Deficiency: By lowering homocysteine levels, B12 also reduces the risk of heart disease, stroke, and other diseases. Vegans and near-vegans who do not supplement with vitamin B12 have consistently shown elevated homocysteine levels. Since 1999, there have been 12 studies comparing the homocysteine levels of vegans and vegetarians who do not supplement their diet with vitamin B12 to those of non-vegetarians. In every study, the vegans or vegetarians had higher homocysteine levels than the meat-eatersand in the range associated with an increased risk of heart disease and stroke."

http://www.veganhealth.org/sh#vitaminb12


B12 and Chronic Disease
http://www.veganhealth.org/b12/hcy

This one is from a raw foodist -- they're even more extreme than your average vegan
http://www.fruitnut.net//index2.htm?PAG=50B12,REF=

Even these nutjob, extreme raw foodists confirm they experienced b12 deficiences. One complete kook even considered the possibility of eating human poop and drinking their own urine to get traces of the vitamin, rather than take a supplement!!
http://hostedstuff.com/services/foru...=2&thread=3432

at 90kgs, I have a slight disadvantage in the Dandebongs:p

aussie, you dun have to worry about b12. every decent aussie kid is raised on vegemite, made from beer, and enters adult life with enuf b12 in their liver to survive 30 aussie summers of drinkin, smokin 'n' rootn. that amount could probably save 500,000 vegan children from dying of malnutrition, but that's not important right now.

If you take the trouble to source organic free range chicken, it is a different thing altogether. Downside is it costs about 4 times as much as a factory farmed bird and it isn't in general distribution.

Probably, but I'm now a bit worried about Wazza

dun worry aboot him, he's made from a Ti/berrilium alloy and is tougher than steel. impossible to weld, tho

to matagi I just want to try something different. Also in the process of being as green as I can. ie car free, and not eating meat contributes alot to reducing greenhouse emissions. Meat can also lead to heart problems later in life. My family havent exactly lived to old age so there is not much history available about heart disease etc. So I want to avoid it the best I can. Diabetes spring to mind as well. After watching a few things lately as well like Steven Spurlock its made me kinda rethink the **** I eat. I was heading down the path of eating too much KFC etc. To me vegetarism is a logical progression for me - at least to try
I know if you dont eat correctly while a vego your worse off than if you ate meat. Thats the reason I asked here. I trust you guys to give me good advice. A lot of vego sites are made by nutters, that shouldn't be listened to. Someone also mentioned there are some nutters in the nutrition section in this forum, so I'm keeping away.

I am worried about B12 so I am definately going to watch that, buy cereals that are fortified and If Im not getting enough either I will take vitamins or seriously consider eating meat. I am also going to invest in some up to date cookbooks, with some sort of table to see if Im getting enough of vitamins etc.
I did not know about amino acids so I am going to read about them tomorrow, I guess they will be very important to me since cycling is my only transportation and if I decide to race later on (when I have enough bucks to buy another bike).
This is the big but for me. If I notice I am not getting enough vitamins and minerals for a healthy lifestyle, Im out, and heading for the nearest kebab shop. Whats the point of being vego if it makes you less healthy than before? Dont take me wrong I want to do this but idealism shouldnt get in the way of your health. By doing the necessary research and buying the right cookbooks I hope to be as healthy or more by being vego.

Thylacine, my philosophy is simply based on eating as well as I can and that includes ensuring (as far as I can) that any meat I eat comes from animals raised and treated well. Downside is, this kind of meat is not easy to source and costs substantially more than the intensively raised stuff you buy in the supermarket. Especially in Sydney where specialist butchers are as rare as hen's teeth. Besides which, I am extremely partial to a nice rare steak, I just don't feel I need to have it every night. I'm a "moderation in all things" kind of girl. :)

Hate to tell you this, but if you stop eating them, farmers will stop raising them and they will cease to exist just like the 400 varieties of pig that have disappeared since the 19th century due to changing eating habits. No seriously, did you know the Gloucester Old Spot was on the endangered list until a few years ago?

The chicken you buy now is rubbish. When was the last time anyone here ate a chook that had goose pimples on it's skin? About 1982 for me. They knock the bloody tasteless things on the head at 6 weeks.

Umm, had roast chook about 3 months ago - it had goose pimples (could have been cold I guess, our fridge - glass fronted commercial job - keeps food at 2 deg C)

Better question, when was the last time anyone found giblets inside their chooks? :eek:

Depends on whether you're talking fast food chicken (crep) or unsynthesised real birds flesh cooked at home. mmmmm home grown, home cooked roast chicken. Na I'd rather have a spinach/soy thick shake.:D

Sustagen is more of a carbohydrate drink. There's heaps of animal-free protein powders at the supermarket. Most are whey (wheat) based.

many moons ago, the vegans and vegos tried to proove that we're not meant to eat any animal products, even to the point where they tried to suggest that we don't really need protein. When they realized they were dead wrong, stupid and amazingly ignorant, they came up with soy as a "good" source of plant protein. Soy seemed to have cred, because 'apparently' the Asians ate tonnes of it, and they all seemed to live to 120!! We've since found out that Asians don't eat that much soy at all, and the soy they do eat is fermented for years, but the hippy crap we get sold is non-fermented, processed goo! Some vegan groups recommend these soy products as a staple, and a protein substitute. The soy industry is now massive, so there's no stopping it. Not only is soy not necessary, it may be unhealthy:

http://www.soyonlineservice.co.nz/
http://www.westonaprice.org/mythstruths/mtsoy.html
http://www.mercola.com/2005/mar/23/soy.htm
http://observer.guardian.co.uk/foodm...2291%2C00.html



It's actually a little frightening that you haven't heard of b12, especially if if you're thinking of being a vegetarian.

The origins of the b12 vegan 'story' is similar to the soy fabel. When the hippies were trying to proove that we didn't need any animal products, they encountered one HUGE hurdle: vitamin b12. This vitamin (the word "vitamins" comes from "vital") only naturally occurs in animal products or plants that are contaminated with animal poo or animal poo bacteria (this is why third world veg countries such as India tend to be free of b12 deficiencies: their food is contaminated with cow dung). (These days it's obviously also found in pills and fortified, processed foods). So, the vegs had one "vital" vitamin they couldn't get from plants -- this hurt their "we don't need to eat animals" fallacy, and the only rubbish they could come up with was to pretend that we just didn't need it :roflmao:

Since those heady, fun-filled days, :p the hippies realized that they were, again, dead wrong, stupid and amazingly ignorant, and have acknowledged that we do need vitB12. So, rather than pretend that we're not meant to eat animal prodcuts, they now conveniently tell us the their philosphy was, all along, only about ethics, not science and ethics, therefore, their disciples are now allowed to get b12 from supplements and fortified foods.:p

As I said above, the need for b12 and protein has since been SO acknowledged by vegans, that the info is available on zillions of vegan and vegy websites

I wouldn't worry too much about your b12, Gabe Kaplan; you're most likely getting some from somewhere, and we don't need that much. The prolem is with the extremists, such as very strict vegans, vegos and raw foodists.


by Neville Martin, silly, underachieved, deferred, BASC Nutrition undergrad :p

Another reason to hate hippies.

Yum - not the shake, the home grown chook:)

Other dead animal products that taste good are the Venison burgers they sell at the Burnie wheelrace, wild duck (greasy and yummy!), steak sandwiches (especially after a night on the piss), Emu pies, Emu pate, Water Buffalo steaks and roast rack of lamb.

It's un-Australian not to eat meat.:D

You guys and your Vego cr*p.

A healthy diet including meat is not so difficult. Instead of having a meal with 60% meat and 40% vegies, you just cook meals with organic lean meats and have 30% meat and 70% vegies. This gives you all the vitamins and minerals you require (assuming you have red/white meat and fish) and doesn't cost you much due to the smaller servings of meat.

BTW, the worst farter I ever smelled was a vego. SHE could clear a room in a few seconds at will.

Neither cows nor lamb eat meat. This allows me to maintain my strict vegetarian diet as well.

get a load o' this heavily referenced site authored by a 'published' dude
http://www.theomnivore.com/home.html

And he's an Aussie!!

This sedentary lifestyle is gonna be the end of me: +2kg in 5 days. might have to become... a vego :eek:

I was gunna mention marmite/vegemite as a B12 source, but chubby boy beat me to it.

I always laugh when people who eat fish and chicken call themselves vegetarians. I can't remember the last time I went out to my vege garden and pulled a fresh chicken or snapper out for dinner :roflmao:

Adequate protein intake is a real problem for vegos and particularly for vegans. You can get some from dairy and a reasonable amount from eggs, but you really have to get most of it from eating lentils or other plants containing protein - anyone for brussel sprouts? Active people who can benefit from a bit more protein can struggle to get enough from those sources.

I have a mate who became vegetarian back in the 80s when he became a devotee of Sathya Sai (a fuzzy haired Indian guru) but had to fall off the wagon a few years ago when he was mid-way through a season of an amateur opera production he was in because he was running out of gas working and singing every day.