A few issues with indexing Shimano 105 5800
01-09-19, 03:35 PM
#1
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A few issues with indexing Shimano 105 5800
Hey Everyone,
First off, a big thanks to everyone who's responded to my previous threads. Being that the place we purchased our bikes (Performance) is no longer willing to help any of their customers with issues with their bikes I'm taking this as an opportunity to learn more and tweak the bikes we have myself. Of course that means many more questions from a newb such as myself.
With that said, I've been trying to figure out a weird issue with my wife's Fuji Cross. First a few specs, it has 105 5800 front/rear derailleurs and shifters but the cranks are Oval with Praxis chain rings (46/36). It's supposed to have a Shimano 105 11/28 cassette but I haven't been able to verify that exactly but for now I'm going to assume it's also 105 5800 (being that it's 11/28 which it appears the R7000 doesn't offer).
Now to the issue... shifting into higher gears seems a little clunky while shifting back down is much smoother. The issues are worse when in the larger chain ring where it barely shifts up at all unless I continue to click the shifter up and down. I spent a few hours today reviewing a number of youtube videos to see how to index the rear derailleur and I have it working beautifully on the bike stand but when we take it on the road it's still very clunky on the up shift (into smaller cogs). It seems to perform best when in the smaller chain ring but on the larger chain ring it's a nightmare to get consistent shifting. Sometimes it will go into the gears just fine but other times it appears it catches on one of the teeth on the cassette and it sort of skips for a moment making it a rather clunky shift. This isn't what I would expect from a 105, even if it's the older model. I also understand this isn't their top of the line stuff but I expect it to at least shift and not skip gears etc.
Having done a little research on the 105 5800 groupset I noticed they don't offer a 46/36 chainset but the true 105 starts at 50/34 and goes up from there. I was wondering if changing the chainset would help the shifting at all. I would go to the R7000 chainset but I ready that would require a new front derailleur at the very least and I'm not sure if the R7000 would be compatible with the existing shifters/cassette (the R7000 doesn't seem to offer an 11/28). Or am I looking too deep into this and should I continue to focus on indexing?
As it stands, she can use the bike when in the smaller chainring and deal with the clunky up shift for a little bit but being these bikes are just a few months old it's a bit of a bummer that it's all not working as expected. All help/advice is greatly appreciated!
First off, a big thanks to everyone who's responded to my previous threads. Being that the place we purchased our bikes (Performance) is no longer willing to help any of their customers with issues with their bikes I'm taking this as an opportunity to learn more and tweak the bikes we have myself. Of course that means many more questions from a newb such as myself.
With that said, I've been trying to figure out a weird issue with my wife's Fuji Cross. First a few specs, it has 105 5800 front/rear derailleurs and shifters but the cranks are Oval with Praxis chain rings (46/36). It's supposed to have a Shimano 105 11/28 cassette but I haven't been able to verify that exactly but for now I'm going to assume it's also 105 5800 (being that it's 11/28 which it appears the R7000 doesn't offer).
Now to the issue... shifting into higher gears seems a little clunky while shifting back down is much smoother. The issues are worse when in the larger chain ring where it barely shifts up at all unless I continue to click the shifter up and down. I spent a few hours today reviewing a number of youtube videos to see how to index the rear derailleur and I have it working beautifully on the bike stand but when we take it on the road it's still very clunky on the up shift (into smaller cogs). It seems to perform best when in the smaller chain ring but on the larger chain ring it's a nightmare to get consistent shifting. Sometimes it will go into the gears just fine but other times it appears it catches on one of the teeth on the cassette and it sort of skips for a moment making it a rather clunky shift. This isn't what I would expect from a 105, even if it's the older model. I also understand this isn't their top of the line stuff but I expect it to at least shift and not skip gears etc.
Having done a little research on the 105 5800 groupset I noticed they don't offer a 46/36 chainset but the true 105 starts at 50/34 and goes up from there. I was wondering if changing the chainset would help the shifting at all. I would go to the R7000 chainset but I ready that would require a new front derailleur at the very least and I'm not sure if the R7000 would be compatible with the existing shifters/cassette (the R7000 doesn't seem to offer an 11/28). Or am I looking too deep into this and should I continue to focus on indexing?
As it stands, she can use the bike when in the smaller chainring and deal with the clunky up shift for a little bit but being these bikes are just a few months old it's a bit of a bummer that it's all not working as expected. All help/advice is greatly appreciated!
01-09-19, 03:55 PM
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I always start with the simple things and the simplest problem with shifting is typically cable tension.
I'm assuming the bike never went back to the shop for a a "1000 mile tune-up" so to speak. Usually you have to adjust cable tension after some usage as the cables and housing "seat" over initial use. Typically that results in slack tension which causes mis-shifts when moving to larger cogs. Your's sound like ithe cable tension for the rear is too tight, thus maybe you've just simply overcompensated ?.
Thing to try first is take the bike out on the street, put it in the big ring, ride a short bit, shifting the rear. If it's missing the upshifts, back off the cable tension adjustment screw where the cable housing feeds the cable into the rear derailer. Turn in clockwise (as you look at the rear of the bike from behind) a 1/4 turn. Ride it, and keep adjusting in small 1/4 turn increments each time until it will shift down. Check the downshift to larger cogs as well as you are riding. Don't do rapid shifts one after the other. Shift, spin a bit, then shift again. Than check it in the small ring.
Could be other things but start with this. The assumption is when assembled at Performance, they did the initial tune up so the combo of 5800 shifters, derailers, and cassette should work with the Oval, unless it's had this problem from the get go. If that's the case, I'd be at a shop with this.
I'm assuming the bike never went back to the shop for a a "1000 mile tune-up" so to speak. Usually you have to adjust cable tension after some usage as the cables and housing "seat" over initial use. Typically that results in slack tension which causes mis-shifts when moving to larger cogs. Your's sound like ithe cable tension for the rear is too tight, thus maybe you've just simply overcompensated ?.
Thing to try first is take the bike out on the street, put it in the big ring, ride a short bit, shifting the rear. If it's missing the upshifts, back off the cable tension adjustment screw where the cable housing feeds the cable into the rear derailer. Turn in clockwise (as you look at the rear of the bike from behind) a 1/4 turn. Ride it, and keep adjusting in small 1/4 turn increments each time until it will shift down. Check the downshift to larger cogs as well as you are riding. Don't do rapid shifts one after the other. Shift, spin a bit, then shift again. Than check it in the small ring.
Could be other things but start with this. The assumption is when assembled at Performance, they did the initial tune up so the combo of 5800 shifters, derailers, and cassette should work with the Oval, unless it's had this problem from the get go. If that's the case, I'd be at a shop with this.
Last edited by Steve B.; 01-09-19 at 03:58 PM.
01-09-19, 04:10 PM
#3
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Thread Starter
I always start with the simple things and the simplest problem with shifting is typically cable tension.
I'm assuming the bike never went back to the shop for a a "1000 mile tune-up" so to speak. Usually you have to adjust cable tension after some usage as the cables and housing "seat" over initial use. Typically that results in slack tension which causes mis-shifts when moving to larger cogs. Your's sound like ithe cable tension for the rear is too tight, thus maybe you've just simply overcompensated ?.
Thing to try first is take the bike out on the street, put it in the big ring, ride a short bit, shifting the rear. If it's missing the upshifts, back off the cable tension adjustment screw where the cable housing feeds the cable into the rear derailer. Turn in clockwise (as you look at the rear of the bike from behind) a 1/4 turn. Ride it, and keep adjusting in small 1/4 turn increments each time until it will shift down. Check the downshift to larger cogs as well as you are riding. Don't do rapid shifts one after the other. Shift, spin a bit, then shift again. Than check it in the small ring.
I'm assuming the bike never went back to the shop for a a "1000 mile tune-up" so to speak. Usually you have to adjust cable tension after some usage as the cables and housing "seat" over initial use. Typically that results in slack tension which causes mis-shifts when moving to larger cogs. Your's sound like ithe cable tension for the rear is too tight, thus maybe you've just simply overcompensated ?.
Thing to try first is take the bike out on the street, put it in the big ring, ride a short bit, shifting the rear. If it's missing the upshifts, back off the cable tension adjustment screw where the cable housing feeds the cable into the rear derailer. Turn in clockwise (as you look at the rear of the bike from behind) a 1/4 turn. Ride it, and keep adjusting in small 1/4 turn increments each time until it will shift down. Check the downshift to larger cogs as well as you are riding. Don't do rapid shifts one after the other. Shift, spin a bit, then shift again. Than check it in the small ring.
Could be other things but start with this. The assumption is when assembled at Performance, they did the initial tune up so the combo of 5800 shifters, derailers, and cassette should work with the Oval, unless it's had this problem from the get go. If that's the case, I'd be at a shop with this.
01-09-19, 04:22 PM
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First thig I'll say is the difference in rear shifting between the chain being on the large a\nd small rings is pretty inherent in the way most all rear ders are. Because the cage pivots off center from the guide pulley as the cage plays out or takes up chain length (from having to wrap around the different sized front rings) the guide pulley raises and falls WRT the rear cog under sides. The more links of chain that span the gap (between the guide pulley and the cog under side) the more points of flex (each chain pivot point) there are that have to load up before transferring the side motion (of the pulley) to the next link pivot and ultimately to the cog's teeth.
Second is that shifting to a lower gear is metaphorically like climbing up a ladder. Each step adds energy to the system. To upshift, gravity (or chain tension from both the cage pivot spring and the rider's pedal pressure) drives the chain down that ladder. It's harder to descend a ladder smoothly the to climb up it.
Third, as Steve B alluded to, cables tend to settle in and effectively "loosen" their tension with initial use (as casing ends push deeper into the caps and the inner cable starts to wear a groove into the casing liner around the curves). So generally cables need tightening up after initial use. But as Steve did say your symptom could be that of a too tight cable.
But also it could be a symptom of too much cable friction as it runs from the levers to the der. (Remember the up shift only moves the exact amount of cable that one cog to cog sideways movement of the der requires, yet one can {and often needs to do** move the cable/der further then the exact amount to shift on a down shift). If there's any significant friction in the cable/casings it will show up on up shifting most often. New cables are not exclusive of poor routing, bad casing end treatments, exposure to grit on first rides/car transports and other friction making issues. Is the routing internal? If so sorry to hear that as this is even more sensitive ti friction and harder to deal with.
If you're lucky all you have is a simple cable tension issue and not a bent hanger or two issues going on at the same time. Andu
Second is that shifting to a lower gear is metaphorically like climbing up a ladder. Each step adds energy to the system. To upshift, gravity (or chain tension from both the cage pivot spring and the rider's pedal pressure) drives the chain down that ladder. It's harder to descend a ladder smoothly the to climb up it.
Third, as Steve B alluded to, cables tend to settle in and effectively "loosen" their tension with initial use (as casing ends push deeper into the caps and the inner cable starts to wear a groove into the casing liner around the curves). So generally cables need tightening up after initial use. But as Steve did say your symptom could be that of a too tight cable.
But also it could be a symptom of too much cable friction as it runs from the levers to the der. (Remember the up shift only moves the exact amount of cable that one cog to cog sideways movement of the der requires, yet one can {and often needs to do** move the cable/der further then the exact amount to shift on a down shift). If there's any significant friction in the cable/casings it will show up on up shifting most often. New cables are not exclusive of poor routing, bad casing end treatments, exposure to grit on first rides/car transports and other friction making issues. Is the routing internal? If so sorry to hear that as this is even more sensitive ti friction and harder to deal with.
If you're lucky all you have is a simple cable tension issue and not a bent hanger or two issues going on at the same time. Andu
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AndrewRStewart
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01-09-19, 04:38 PM
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"Shifting when on the larger chain ring was always iffy".
That kind of says a potential component mis-match, but a shop might know better. I doubt the gazillion Fuji Cross bikes out there would have that kind of obvious issue. Shimano makes a 46/36, it's a cross racing crank, but it's an Ultegra 6800 series and runs north of $170 or so. Not an economical solution maybe. Do some research here as well for 46/30 cranks, that's a really nice range. Only nice thing about the Ultegra is, and according to the Shimano compatibility chart, it's designed to work with 5800 series components, so an almost guaranteed solution, if it's the current crank that's the problem.
It gets worse potentially, the Performance mess, as Bicycle Retailer notes that the parent company of Performance - Advanced Sports Enterprises, will be selling the Fuji, Breezer and Kestrel brands. Might affect warranty, but who knows.
That kind of says a potential component mis-match, but a shop might know better. I doubt the gazillion Fuji Cross bikes out there would have that kind of obvious issue. Shimano makes a 46/36, it's a cross racing crank, but it's an Ultegra 6800 series and runs north of $170 or so. Not an economical solution maybe. Do some research here as well for 46/30 cranks, that's a really nice range. Only nice thing about the Ultegra is, and according to the Shimano compatibility chart, it's designed to work with 5800 series components, so an almost guaranteed solution, if it's the current crank that's the problem.
It gets worse potentially, the Performance mess, as Bicycle Retailer notes that the parent company of Performance - Advanced Sports Enterprises, will be selling the Fuji, Breezer and Kestrel brands. Might affect warranty, but who knows.
01-09-19, 04:43 PM
#6
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Thread Starter
First thig I'll say is the difference in rear shifting between the chain being on the large a\nd small rings is pretty inherent in the way most all rear ders are. Because the cage pivots off center from the guide pulley as the cage plays out or takes up chain length (from having to wrap around the different sized front rings) the guide pulley raises and falls WRT the rear cog under sides. The more links of chain that span the gap (between the guide pulley and the cog under side) the more points of flex (each chain pivot point) there are that have to load up before transferring the side motion (of the pulley) to the next link pivot and ultimately to the cog's teeth.
Second is that shifting to a lower gear is metaphorically like climbing up a ladder. Each step adds energy to the system. To upshift, gravity (or chain tension from both the cage pivot spring and the rider's pedal pressure) drives the chain down that ladder. It's harder to descend a ladder smoothly the to climb up it.
Third, as Steve B alluded to, cables tend to settle in and effectively "loosen" their tension with initial use (as casing ends push deeper into the caps and the inner cable starts to wear a groove into the casing liner around the curves). So generally cables need tightening up after initial use. But as Steve did say your symptom could be that of a too tight cable.
But also it could be a symptom of too much cable friction as it runs from the levers to the der. (Remember the up shift only moves the exact amount of cable that one cog to cog sideways movement of the der requires, yet one can {and often needs to do** move the cable/der further then the exact amount to shift on a down shift). If there's any significant friction in the cable/casings it will show up on up shifting most often. New cables are not exclusive of poor routing, bad casing end treatments, exposure to grit on first rides/car transports and other friction making issues. Is the routing internal? If so sorry to hear that as this is even more sensitive ti friction and harder to deal with.
If you're lucky all you have is a simple cable tension issue and not a bent hanger or two issues going on at the same time. Andu
Second is that shifting to a lower gear is metaphorically like climbing up a ladder. Each step adds energy to the system. To upshift, gravity (or chain tension from both the cage pivot spring and the rider's pedal pressure) drives the chain down that ladder. It's harder to descend a ladder smoothly the to climb up it.
Third, as Steve B alluded to, cables tend to settle in and effectively "loosen" their tension with initial use (as casing ends push deeper into the caps and the inner cable starts to wear a groove into the casing liner around the curves). So generally cables need tightening up after initial use. But as Steve did say your symptom could be that of a too tight cable.
But also it could be a symptom of too much cable friction as it runs from the levers to the der. (Remember the up shift only moves the exact amount of cable that one cog to cog sideways movement of the der requires, yet one can {and often needs to do** move the cable/der further then the exact amount to shift on a down shift). If there's any significant friction in the cable/casings it will show up on up shifting most often. New cables are not exclusive of poor routing, bad casing end treatments, exposure to grit on first rides/car transports and other friction making issues. Is the routing internal? If so sorry to hear that as this is even more sensitive ti friction and harder to deal with.
If you're lucky all you have is a simple cable tension issue and not a bent hanger or two issues going on at the same time. Andu
Thank you for the input! This has semi-internal routing for the cables so I'm not sure how difficult it would be to troubleshoot any friction. The bikes aren't that old (both were purchased in the last 3 months) so I can't imagine it being too terrible but I guess I can never tell without looking at it first hand. I will attempt to play with the tension first and see that goes first.
01-09-19, 05:29 PM
#7
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Thread Starter
"Shifting when on the larger chain ring was always iffy".
That kind of says a potential component mis-match, but a shop might know better. I doubt the gazillion Fuji Cross bikes out there would have that kind of obvious issue. Shimano makes a 46/36, it's a cross racing crank, but it's an Ultegra 6800 series and runs north of $170 or so. Not an economical solution maybe. Do some research here as well for 46/30 cranks, that's a really nice range. Only nice thing about the Ultegra is, and according to the Shimano compatibility chart, it's designed to work with 5800 series components, so an almost guaranteed solution, if it's the current crank that's the problem.
It gets worse potentially, the Performance mess, as Bicycle Retailer notes that the parent company of Performance - Advanced Sports Enterprises, will be selling the Fuji, Breezer and Kestrel brands. Might affect warranty, but who knows.
That kind of says a potential component mis-match, but a shop might know better. I doubt the gazillion Fuji Cross bikes out there would have that kind of obvious issue. Shimano makes a 46/36, it's a cross racing crank, but it's an Ultegra 6800 series and runs north of $170 or so. Not an economical solution maybe. Do some research here as well for 46/30 cranks, that's a really nice range. Only nice thing about the Ultegra is, and according to the Shimano compatibility chart, it's designed to work with 5800 series components, so an almost guaranteed solution, if it's the current crank that's the problem.
It gets worse potentially, the Performance mess, as Bicycle Retailer notes that the parent company of Performance - Advanced Sports Enterprises, will be selling the Fuji, Breezer and Kestrel brands. Might affect warranty, but who knows.
I will still play with the tension a little and see how far it takes me. As it stands it's not unridable but it is a bummer that new bikes need so much TLC at the moment. I get the idea of needing to get a 1000 mile tune up etc, and I would be at the shop today if they honored their support but again, crap luck on that one I guess. It has been fun to research all of this since my ultimate goal was to get into the mechanical side of road bikes but I didn't expect to have to work on these two bikes so soon lol.
Thanks all!
01-09-19, 05:30 PM
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I would check your shift cables at both ends. I had a rear shifting issue on my Tiagra 4700 where downshifts (to the bigger cogs) was fine but upshifts were getting worse and worse. I suspected the cable, but mine were internally routed and not something I wanted to deal with, so I took it to a LBS. The mechanic disconnected the rear shift cable and held it in one hand while shifting up and down with the other. The cable wasn't releasing at all on upshifts to the highest gears, so he popped the hood cover open and showed me that the shift cable had frayed. I gladly paid him to extract the cable and leftover shards plus route a new cable.
01-09-19, 05:48 PM
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I've heard of sluggish shifting from the internally routed cables. Try turning the bike so you can dribble some tri-flo or other light lube down the cable into the housings. Shift up and down a few times to work it into the bends.
01-09-19, 06:28 PM
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I read that ASE purchased Performance a few years back to keep a retail outlet for all of their Fuji, Breezer etc brands. Admittedly Fuji support is very responsive via email, it's just a shame I can't bring these bike's into a LBS for support any longer. I think I just got "lucky" and bought these bikes just a month or so before the announced their chapter 11 and decided to close all stores in Florida. Hooray! :|
I will still play with the tension a little and see how far it takes me. As it stands it's not unridable but it is a bummer that new bikes need so much TLC at the moment. I get the idea of needing to get a 1000 mile tune up etc, and I would be at the shop today if they honored their support but again, crap luck on that one I guess. It has been fun to research all of this since my ultimate goal was to get into the mechanical side of road bikes but I didn't expect to have to work on these two bikes so soon lol.
Thanks all!
I will still play with the tension a little and see how far it takes me. As it stands it's not unridable but it is a bummer that new bikes need so much TLC at the moment. I get the idea of needing to get a 1000 mile tune up etc, and I would be at the shop today if they honored their support but again, crap luck on that one I guess. It has been fun to research all of this since my ultimate goal was to get into the mechanical side of road bikes but I didn't expect to have to work on these two bikes so soon lol.
Thanks all!
01-09-19, 07:00 PM
#11
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Thread Starter
You can ALWAYS take it another LBS for service. Just because you didn't purchase it at a specific shop doesn't mean a shop won't work on it. Sometimes they will say NO, but it's kind of unusual as they are there to make money. Remember that shops go out of business all the time and the work then moves to those that stayed in business. No difference with Performance. I'm certain there are brick and mortar old time shops around that will be picking up business from a defunct Performance, no reason you are not one of them.
01-09-19, 07:19 PM
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There are a few other shops around so you’re right, I can just take it in and pay them to iron it out. I did want to use this as an opportunity to learn more this stuff myself. I’m a hands on kind of fella and like to be able to do general maintenance stuff on my own. Of course if I can’t figure it out no matter what we’ll have to take her in and have a professional assess the situation. I’m sure they’ve been seeing a good number of Fuji bikes since Performance has stopped servicing their former customers lol
https://www.parktool.com/blog/repair...eur-adjustment
https://www.parktool.com/blog/repair...eur-adjustment
Their site also has a wealth of other bike maintenance and adjustment information and it would be worth your time to have a look. Good luck.
01-09-19, 09:26 PM
#13
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Thread Starter
It is great that you want to learn these things. I would suggest that you follow the Park Tool procedures for adjusting your bike's shifting; as mentioned cables settle into their housings and a few simple adjustments will often set things right. Remember, your bike does shift now, so it should only take very small adjustments (1/4 turn or less at a time) to get it shifting optimally.
https://www.parktool.com/blog/repair...eur-adjustment
https://www.parktool.com/blog/repair...eur-adjustment
Their site also has a wealth of other bike maintenance and adjustment information and it would be worth your time to have a look. Good luck.
https://www.parktool.com/blog/repair...eur-adjustment
https://www.parktool.com/blog/repair...eur-adjustment
Their site also has a wealth of other bike maintenance and adjustment information and it would be worth your time to have a look. Good luck.
01-10-19, 12:24 PM
#14
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Thread Starter
A quick update. I cleaned out and lightly greased the rear DR and shifter just in case there was something goofy going on there. No luck. I then decided to start from scratch, set the DR to the highest gear (smallest cog) loosened the cable clamp on the DR and adjusted the high bolt setting. From there I pushed the DR all the way up to the lowest gear (largest cog) and set the low bolt. From there I put the rear DR back onto the smallest cog and gave the cable a little tension and tightened the cable clamp bolt. Then I began re-indexing all gears from the largest chain ring (per the Park tutorial linked above). On the stand the gears all shift smoothly. Move it down to the smaller chain ring and there is some tweaking to be done there. I'm not sure if indexing on one chain ring should be enough to keep everything in check so I decided to tweak the tension knob 1/4 turn at a time until the small chain ring was indexed perfectly and smooth. Shift back up to the large chain ring and checked it on the stand and everything appears to be indexed and shifting smoothly.
Now I wanted to tweak on the bike as Steve suggested so I gave her a spin and began shifting one at a time and pedaling a bit in between shifts. A few 1/4 turns were required to get it shifting smoothly on the small chain ring but the large chain ring still behaves funky. For instance, when on the largest cog, it takes two clicks to get it to the next cog. from there it will shift up for a few gears and between 7-6 it will jump two gears (maybe from the second click to get it from 11-10?). It will jump two gears on the smaller cogs and never makes it to the smallest one no matter how many times I click it. Change back to the small chain ring and everything is still working nice and smooth. Go back up to the large chain ring and it's the same BS as before. I put her back up on the stand to try again just to see if it would behave the same on the stand as it does while I was taking an easy ride with it and it shifts perfectly. So now I'm stumped lol. I may just take her in at this point since I'm not sure if I need to evaluate the cables, housings or shifters and that may be a little out of my scope of abilities at this point, merely because I don't want my wife to not have her bike available while I figure it all out. The other issue is if I knew what was wrong I could focus on learning to repair that one element but since this is a weird issue with a few potential causes, I may be doing more harm than good.
Good news is, it's shifting rather smoothly in the small chain ring and being that we're not flying down any hills at 30-40mph, she doesn't really utilize the large chain ring too much anyway. I'm still bummed that it's not working though and little things like that weigh on me a bit.
If anyone else has any advice, I'm all ear/eyes. It's been extremely fun and educational to research all of this and try and figure it out. I feel confident in knowing how to index my rear and front DR's now which was something I was hesitant about before all of this and I'm glad I had the opportunity to learn something new. That said, my pride is still a bit bruised from not being able to figure it out on my own! (well with the help of you all as well
) lol
Now I wanted to tweak on the bike as Steve suggested so I gave her a spin and began shifting one at a time and pedaling a bit in between shifts. A few 1/4 turns were required to get it shifting smoothly on the small chain ring but the large chain ring still behaves funky. For instance, when on the largest cog, it takes two clicks to get it to the next cog. from there it will shift up for a few gears and between 7-6 it will jump two gears (maybe from the second click to get it from 11-10?). It will jump two gears on the smaller cogs and never makes it to the smallest one no matter how many times I click it. Change back to the small chain ring and everything is still working nice and smooth. Go back up to the large chain ring and it's the same BS as before. I put her back up on the stand to try again just to see if it would behave the same on the stand as it does while I was taking an easy ride with it and it shifts perfectly. So now I'm stumped lol. I may just take her in at this point since I'm not sure if I need to evaluate the cables, housings or shifters and that may be a little out of my scope of abilities at this point, merely because I don't want my wife to not have her bike available while I figure it all out. The other issue is if I knew what was wrong I could focus on learning to repair that one element but since this is a weird issue with a few potential causes, I may be doing more harm than good.
Good news is, it's shifting rather smoothly in the small chain ring and being that we're not flying down any hills at 30-40mph, she doesn't really utilize the large chain ring too much anyway. I'm still bummed that it's not working though and little things like that weigh on me a bit.
If anyone else has any advice, I'm all ear/eyes. It's been extremely fun and educational to research all of this and try and figure it out. I feel confident in knowing how to index my rear and front DR's now which was something I was hesitant about before all of this and I'm glad I had the opportunity to learn something new. That said, my pride is still a bit bruised from not being able to figure it out on my own! (well with the help of you all as well
) lol
01-10-19, 03:14 PM
#15
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Good news is, it's shifting rather smoothly in the small chain ring and being that we're not flying down any hills at 30-40mph, she doesn't really utilize the large chain ring too much anyway. I'm still bummed that it's not working though and little things like that weigh on me a bit.
If anyone else has any advice, I'm all ear/eyes. It's been extremely fun and educational to research all of this and try and figure it out. I feel confident in knowing how to index my rear and front DR's now which was something I was hesitant about before all of this and I'm glad I had the opportunity to learn something new. That said, my pride is still a bit bruised from not being able to figure it out on my own! (well with the help of you all as well ) lol
If anyone else has any advice, I'm all ear/eyes. It's been extremely fun and educational to research all of this and try and figure it out. I feel confident in knowing how to index my rear and front DR's now which was something I was hesitant about before all of this and I'm glad I had the opportunity to learn something new. That said, my pride is still a bit bruised from not being able to figure it out on my own! (well with the help of you all as well
) lolAlso, with bikes, there are so many factors at play in the driveline, that every guide will be a generalization at best, and each bike will be different. Sometimes simpler guidelines are better than detailed instructions.
01-10-19, 04:09 PM
#16
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Join Date: Jul 2007
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Some thoughts;
1) It almost sounds like a compatibility issue between the Oval crank and the 5800 system, maybe the positioning of the crank is not to a Shimano spec. I was wondering if a mismatch is causing the big ring to change the entry angle of the chain to the lower jockey wheel and possibly pulling the rear derailleur in such a way as to exhibit the "too much cable tension" symptom. Except many of these bikes have been sold with these components installed so that "maybe" rules out compatibility as the problem.
2) Shimano does not show a compatibility between the 5800 system and 46/36 rings, as noted here: 2018-2019 SHIMANO Product Information Web
3) I applaud the OP's desire to learn and do your own work, but sometimes the lack of experience is going to drive you nuts as you try to troubleshoot. I build up bikes from frames but on occasion have to head to the shop for some expert help. My local guy caught that I was attempting to use a 9spd system with an 8 spd. triple crank, was why the chain was dropping between rings when I shifted to a smaller ring. I would never have thought of that as I had no clue Shimano had changed spacing between rings.
4) It really sounds like a cable tension issue. Maybe a housing is not seated correctly ?, got moved when you disattached cables ?, thus some friction at certain points in cable travel ?. Maybe just enough dirt in the system to cause mis-shifts in that combo ?, even though the bike is only a few months old ?, been riding gravel and dirt ?.
1) It almost sounds like a compatibility issue between the Oval crank and the 5800 system, maybe the positioning of the crank is not to a Shimano spec. I was wondering if a mismatch is causing the big ring to change the entry angle of the chain to the lower jockey wheel and possibly pulling the rear derailleur in such a way as to exhibit the "too much cable tension" symptom. Except many of these bikes have been sold with these components installed so that "maybe" rules out compatibility as the problem.
2) Shimano does not show a compatibility between the 5800 system and 46/36 rings, as noted here: 2018-2019 SHIMANO Product Information Web
3) I applaud the OP's desire to learn and do your own work, but sometimes the lack of experience is going to drive you nuts as you try to troubleshoot. I build up bikes from frames but on occasion have to head to the shop for some expert help. My local guy caught that I was attempting to use a 9spd system with an 8 spd. triple crank, was why the chain was dropping between rings when I shifted to a smaller ring. I would never have thought of that as I had no clue Shimano had changed spacing between rings.
4) It really sounds like a cable tension issue. Maybe a housing is not seated correctly ?, got moved when you disattached cables ?, thus some friction at certain points in cable travel ?. Maybe just enough dirt in the system to cause mis-shifts in that combo ?, even though the bike is only a few months old ?, been riding gravel and dirt ?.
01-10-19, 05:19 PM
#17
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Some thoughts;
1) It almost sounds like a compatibility issue between the Oval crank and the 5800 system, maybe the positioning of the crank is not to a Shimano spec. I was wondering if a mismatch is causing the big ring to change the entry angle of the chain to the lower jockey wheel and possibly pulling the rear derailleur in such a way as to exhibit the "too much cable tension" symptom. Except many of these bikes have been sold with these components installed so that "maybe" rules out compatibility as the problem.
2) Shimano does not show a compatibility between the 5800 system and 46/36 rings, as noted here: 2018-2019 SHIMANO Product Information Web
3) I applaud the OP's desire to learn and do your own work, but sometimes the lack of experience is going to drive you nuts as you try to troubleshoot. I build up bikes from frames but on occasion have to head to the shop for some expert help. My local guy caught that I was attempting to use a 9spd system with an 8 spd. triple crank, was why the chain was dropping between rings when I shifted to a smaller ring. I would never have thought of that as I had no clue Shimano had changed spacing between rings.
4) It really sounds like a cable tension issue. Maybe a housing is not seated correctly ?, got moved when you disattached cables ?, thus some friction at certain points in cable travel ?. Maybe just enough dirt in the system to cause mis-shifts in that combo ?, even though the bike is only a few months old ?, been riding gravel and dirt ?.
1) It almost sounds like a compatibility issue between the Oval crank and the 5800 system, maybe the positioning of the crank is not to a Shimano spec. I was wondering if a mismatch is causing the big ring to change the entry angle of the chain to the lower jockey wheel and possibly pulling the rear derailleur in such a way as to exhibit the "too much cable tension" symptom. Except many of these bikes have been sold with these components installed so that "maybe" rules out compatibility as the problem.
2) Shimano does not show a compatibility between the 5800 system and 46/36 rings, as noted here: 2018-2019 SHIMANO Product Information Web
3) I applaud the OP's desire to learn and do your own work, but sometimes the lack of experience is going to drive you nuts as you try to troubleshoot. I build up bikes from frames but on occasion have to head to the shop for some expert help. My local guy caught that I was attempting to use a 9spd system with an 8 spd. triple crank, was why the chain was dropping between rings when I shifted to a smaller ring. I would never have thought of that as I had no clue Shimano had changed spacing between rings.
4) It really sounds like a cable tension issue. Maybe a housing is not seated correctly ?, got moved when you disattached cables ?, thus some friction at certain points in cable travel ?. Maybe just enough dirt in the system to cause mis-shifts in that combo ?, even though the bike is only a few months old ?, been riding gravel and dirt ?.
My next troubleshooting step was to replace the cables since they’re not Shimano and maybe weren’t lubed properly during installation. Or maybe it just been on too long despite sitting on the shelf for so long and now it’s become an issue? I know it could be any number of those things and truth be told I’m willing to fork out a few bucks to replace a few things just to start fresh. Since we don’t have support I don’t have to worry about voiding any sort of customer satisfaction guarantee etc. lol
01-10-19, 07:45 PM
#18
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Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: South shore, L.I., NY
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Bikes: Flyxii FR322, Cannondale Topstone, Miyata City Liner, Specialized Chisel, Specialized Epic Evo
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Yes we have been riding on dirt and gravel a few times but mainly on the road though, it’s been doing this since we bought the bike. It is a cross bike so maybe that’s the issue here. We just didn’t have time with the holidays to bring it in before they announced their closings. It is an older model so I’m sure it was sitting around for a while and I’m wondering how many of these particular models sold have had similar issues. Maybe I’ll do some google-fu this evening to see if anyone else has had similar issues.
My next troubleshooting step was to replace the cables since they’re not Shimano and maybe weren’t lubed properly during installation. Or maybe it just been on too long despite sitting on the shelf for so long and now it’s become an issue? I know it could be any number of those things and truth be told I’m willing to fork out a few bucks to replace a few things just to start fresh. Since we don’t have support I don’t have to worry about voiding any sort of customer satisfaction guarantee etc. lol
As to cables, don’t add lube to cables. Cables from Shimano come prelubed in the housing and most recommendations is to not add lube as it just gums up the system, but you do get disagreements on this. I like the Dura-Ace level pre-cut cable sets, but have also just purchased bulk housing and cheaper cable sets. You need special cutters for the housing and another cutter for the cable to get clean cuts. If and when cutting housing, save the old housing to match the length.
01-11-19, 08:50 AM
#19
Dirty Heathen
Join Date: Oct 2015
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A quick update. I cleaned out and lightly greased the rear DR and shifter just in case there was something goofy going on there. No luck. I then decided to start from scratch, set the DR to the highest gear (smallest cog) loosened the cable clamp on the DR and adjusted the high bolt setting. From there I pushed the DR all the way up to the lowest gear (largest cog) and set the low bolt. From there I put the rear DR back onto the smallest cog and gave the cable a little tension and tightened the cable clamp bolt. Then I began re-indexing all gears from the largest chain ring (per the Park tutorial linked above). On the stand the gears all shift smoothly. Move it down to the smaller chain ring and there is some tweaking to be done there. I'm not sure if indexing on one chain ring should be enough to keep everything in check so I decided to tweak the tension knob 1/4 turn at a time until the small chain ring was indexed perfectly and smooth. Shift back up to the large chain ring and checked it on the stand and everything appears to be indexed and shifting smoothly.
I might re-set the RD cable again, but with a slightly different sequence.
-Put the bike in the big ring and the small cog. Remove the cable from the RD. Make sure all your adjusters are 'in'
-Set the H-stop.
-Attach the cable3. I try to hold the cable taut when I tighten the clamp screw.
-Start shifting up to the bigger cogs, one at a time. I usually go up 3, then back down 2, to see how my cable tension is.
Too loose, and it won't make the next cog, too tight, and it'll skip gears coming back down. I don't do tension adjustments on the small cog, since the limit stop holds the DR, but the next 2 up, since the cable is 'live'
-Once you get to the big cog, set the L-stop.
I usually only do the bottom 2/3 of the cassette on the big ring, and save the big cogs for the small ring. You don't ever run big-big, so no sense trying to tune that combination to work right.
Other things to consider: The H/L screws on the RD don't have anything to do with the indexing. They're just the limit stops so you don't shift off the end of the cassette. The shifter controls the indexing, and the cable tension adjusts the RD to those shift points.
The brand of crank/rings doesn't really matter to the RD, but the BB width, 'Q-factor' and chainstay length will affect shift quality. Small frames with short chainstays are more finicky than larger frames. A 48cm XS will often be a lot touchier to set up than the exact same bike in a 56cm
Finally, check the RD hanger and jockey cage alignment. 10- and 11-speed systems are very sensitive to this, due to the tight spacing on the cassettes, much more so than 9-speed.
