So I'm re-spoking my DT Axis 4.0 wheels with some nicer spokes. The problem I've run into, and I noticed this with the original spokes, is that the lacing pattern doesn't seem to be truly radial. Now looking at the pictures you can see that the spokes have a slight angle to them coming off of the hub. Also the spokes are laced into the holes on the rim that are opposite to the hub flange side, i.e. the right flange spokes are laced into the rim holes running on the left side of the rim. Is this right?? This is how it came from the factory. I have an inclination that the spokes are laced into the wrong holes and that's what is causing the not exactly radial lacing.

Did you replace each spoke one at a time or remove all the spokes and lace up from scratch? I tell people who only want to replace spokes to do them one at a time to not mess up the lacing pattern. It looks to me that you only need to move one side's spokes over two rim holes (or to the next hole in the rim that is oriented toward that side). Andy.

Yes I replaced them one at a time, which is why I'm certain it came like that from the factory.

Maybe it did come from the factory this way, but I would be surprised. The original lacing pattern shouldn't be a problem if the hub has a large diameter barrel. the twisting forces would be pretty small.

When you say "better" spokes what is it you made better? Just curious why you went to this trouble. Andy.

I should have said "nicer" not better. Andy.

Ok, but do you think that having them laced into the wrong holes is causing the not exactly radial spoke angle?

By nicer I meant the spokes I'm putting on are lighter, possibly made better, and sliver (which is the look I want). The originals were (i'm guessing) dt comp double butted, I replaced them with Sapim Laser double butted. I work at a bike shop so I can afford to do this crap for the sake of seeing whether it will actually make a difference in the way the wheels feel, also for experience.

I'm guessing the wheel came with 2.0mm spokes and he's swapped in double butted (2.0/1.8/2.0 it seems) spokes.

To the OP, is there any tension on the spokes right now? I'm baffled by the crooked hub, unless you have a short spoke or two mixed in amongst the rest.

And if it were my wheel, I'd want it spoked properly regardless of how it came as stock. There's no good reason for left side spokes to go to the right side holes. Since there's clearly an issue as the wheel is currently built (neglecting the left/right hole issue), you might as well take it all apart, assess your components, and then rebuild properly.

No the wheel came with the same type of spokes 2.0/1.8/2.0, but the 2.0 portion was longer on the dt spokes. They are tensioned to 105kgf, all of the spokes are the same length.

Ok, I wasn't sure if that was how a radially laced wheel was supposed to be spoked or not. I was really surprised that it was laced with the right spokes going to the left rim holes too. Now that I know that is wrong I'm almost sure that it is the cause of the cooked hub too. If you look the first picture it seems that the spokes should be 1 hole to the counter clockwise direction. I guess it was just a fluke at the factory.

Oh but there is! Doing a lateral cross will basically have the same effect as using a wider hub, ie you get a better bracing angle, giving a slightly laterally stiffer wheel.

Now whether the rider is in a position to actually benefit from the laterally stiffer wheel or not is another question. There's not much practical improvement from a wheel that's better-than-needed.

Ok, I finally see what's wrong. Basically, each left and right pair of spokes is going to the incorrect hole. Once swapped, the slight tangential spoking will go away and the spokes will no longer cross each others' paths when the hub is sighted down the axle.

Ok, but the same effect could be had by lacing the wheel with the spoke heads in, and without causing all the unnecessary bending as the spoke leaves the nipple. But I guess heads-in plus and the left/right swap would be the stiffest-est

If you want to be generous, you could say that it was laced in a lateral cross to regain the bracing angle lost by lacing it heads-out, but in your case it probably was a fluke.
The pattern you have is an all-leading, all-trailing, which is rather unusual.
How did the spoke length work out?
I suspect your pattern would use the same length as if you'd laced it 1X.

Two issues, here.

One the lacing to the opposite hole in the rim isn't unheard of and is done to increase the bracing angle, or to reduce the tension difference in dished (asymmetrical) rear wheels. Going to the opposite hole reduces the percentage difference in CTF distance in the hub.

Non radial, twist pattern. This could be an error you made if you removed all the spokes from one flange, then connected it wrong. Otherwise, (and most likely if the spoke length is right) it was intentional. Some builders do this for cool factor, including one I know who's made a specialty of wheels built like this, only more extreme. Some also claim that building rear wheels with the right side spokes all pulling, and the left all counter somehow reduces stress with high driving torque. This would also apply to front disc brake hubs, but the pattern would be reversed. I'm not a believer, just reporting what I see.

If you want to be strict, it'd be down to the specifics of the geometry of the parts. It's the angle that's the key. Whether you're moving the nipple end to the left or the head end to the right equally much will have the same results.
For a narrow road rim you'll probably gain more angle from 2X the flange thickness(heads-out improvement vs heads-in) than you get from the sideways displacement available from a lateral cross. Now for something like an old single-wall hybrid/comfort bike rim - there's potential for some serious gain.

Indeed. Not that there's many people who'd actually benefit from them, but if you had a hub where the nipples end up at the hub, it'd be possible to drill the brake track and thread the spokes through there - assuming a disc brake of course. That would basically mimic the lateral properties of a wheel built around a hub 2X the rim width wider.

Yes. This.

Good point. My mind is on road wheels because I haven't built a MTB wheel in quite a while.

Shimano made some road wheels some years back where they put the nipples at the hub and had the spokes exiting through the more vertical section of the v-shaped rim. Similar concept to what you are suggesting but not as extreme.

yes, but the Op says he replaced the spokes one at a time, which was the first question asked. If so, the pattern couldn't have changed since he only had one pair of hole open at a time. To mess up the pattern, the Op would need to replaced at least two adjacent spokes in a flange at a time, or the entire flange.

Its laced wrong. Nothing more, nothing less. If it was like that when new then someone goofed. Nothing more, nothing less.

After my education in this thread, in hindsight I should have put "wrong" in quotes. If this was the factory lacing then I guess nothing is actually "wrong" other than it looking odd. Clearly, the wheel survived so far.

The somewhat boring reality here is that regular designs survive well enough that I can't rustle up the commitment to build something myself, even if it would be clearly better by a decent fraction.
Imagine a rear wheel with the DS spokes anchored on the NDS brake track - a huge improvement in spoke tension balance.

As to the matter of the left-side spokes having the nipples at a right-side oriented hole (and vice versa,)
Some deep section rims have access holes that are opposite the exit holes. This gives the impression that the
spokes are cross-oriented, if that is proper nomenclature.
Are you looking at the offset of the access hole or the exit hole?
Your rim MIGHT be this way. Just a thought..

As to the radial angle of the spokes from the flange to the rim, it appears
that the spokes from one flange are not traversing to the rim in the correct stagger.They are incorrectly phased.
That is to say, spokes from the left flange should be laced to the hole on the other side of the right side spoke.
That would result in no apparent crossing when viewed from the side.
Who is to say what the design intent was from the factory??

I'll reference my commuter rear wheel, built with an IRD Cadence VSR rim and American Classic hub with 80% of DS tension on the NDS. All heads-out of the NDS would likely get me another 5%. If they made a disc road hub at 130mm (and if my frame had a rear disc mount), presumably the balance would get even better though my wheel wouldn't be any stronger laterally. Your idea would likely get truly balanced tension, perhaps even allowing normal nipple-at-the-rim for the NDS.

It would be something fun to draw up in CAD if I ever get that bored. But as you say, given the minimal potential gains, I'll need to be really bored to put in that much effort!

I think everyone has been looking for a too complicated explanation of what is happening. It's a radial spoked wheel. There is really only one way for the spokes to travel from the hub to the rim. You may have twisted the hub a little during the lacing and it happened to stay that way. I'm assuming that you have it tensioned since you have a tire mounted to it but I'd be amazed if it stayed in that configuration once you start riding it.

The best way to proceed is to detension the wheel, twist the hub so that the spokes leave the hub straight and then retension the wheel. Simple and uncomplicated like a radial spoked wheel should be. The hub will eventually twist back to where the spokes leave the hub radially anyway and that would not be good if it happen at a time when you are depending on the the wheel do do what a wheel does.

Umm...........What?
The spokes traverse from the hub to the rim in a straight line, and direction relative to each other depends on the pattern in which they are laced.
If the spokes are laced radially and staggered correctly, the resulting spoke path will radiate directly from the axle center to a perpendicular intersection with a tangent to the rim arc at the spoke hole.
A simple concept that is wordy to explain. In essence, there will be no angle at the hub or the rim.
If they to not traverse on a directly radial path, it is because they were not laced to do so.

Twisting the hub of a correctly laced radially spokes wheel cannot be kept in that orientation after tensioning.
Tensionong the spokes would straighten things up in a hurry if the spokes were in fact laced radially.

The OP's wheel exhibits a pattern in which the stagger between flanges is not radially laced;
but, rather, the spokes pull in opposite directions (as in a typical cross-laced pattern, just to a lesser degree) resulting in the slight angle.
However, even in a cross pattern laced wheel, the spoke from a trailing staggered flange hole would traverse to a trailing hole in the rim.
The pattern used on the OP's wheel laces the spokes from the trailing staggered hub flange holes to holes in the rim that lead the spokes that they trailed at the hub. Viewing photo #1 shows the spokes pulling in opposite directions. This is the reason why.
Simple as that.

I am not saying that it is right or wrong; it simply is not a true radial pattern.
It may have been designed precisely that way.

You got the straight line right but you are missing the point. There is no "pattern" to a radially laced wheel other than right then left. The spokes are radial. They can go in one direction...straight from the hub to the rim. As simple as possible.

Yep. The spokes travel from the hub to the rim in a straight, perpendicular line. If spoke #1 goes from the hub to the rim radially, then spoke #2 , spoke #3 , spoke #4 , etc. will all go in the same straight line. I don't see any crossed spokes in the pictures so there isn't any other way to lace the wheel.

It should but for some reason it didn't. I see the reason and I'll present it in a second.

It is simple but not for the reasons that you are saying.

Nope. Not designed that way. It a simple building error. Look at the first attached picture. Start counting from the valve stem clockwise. At spokes 12 and 13, you'll see that the two right hand spokes are attached to the same side instead of the correct left/right pattern. Spokes 14 and 15 are also both on the same side.

SumoMuffin: Detension the wheel. Swap what is now spoke 14 with spoke 13, so that you have one spoke running from the right and one running from the left. This should straighten out the hub.