Legs cramping at 40 miles
06-12-12 | 11:24 AM
#26
Banned.
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 20,915
Likes: 13
06-12-12 | 11:28 AM
#27
Dharma Dog
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 2,073
Likes: 2
From: Vancouver, Canada
Bikes: Rodriguez Shiftless street fixie with S&S couplers, Kuwahara tandem, Trek carbon, Dolan track
I'll go with muscle fatigue being the trigger. The last time I cramped was when I rode the Davis Double last month. The cramps came just before the rest stop 3 miles before the summit of Cobb Mountain, so after about 100 miles. I'm riding a fixed gear, out of the saddle in 44x17 on a continuous steep grade, must have been 15% or more for several miles. I don't drink much (I carry only one regular-size bottle on these rides since the rest stops are so close together), but I drank even less at Borrego the following week where there is about three times more climbing and I did not cramp there. Davis was much warmer than Borrego, but otherwise the only variable that changed was the degree of effort on that one long, steep climb.
So I would say that the best way to avoid cramping is to ease off a little when you start feeling the little twinges. And then just increase training volume or intensity. I normally get in three or four hundred kilometers per week, about 20,000 km per year, most of it fairly low intensity since I stopped racing. And even with that I'm cramping up on extended intense efforts. But that's what makes getting over Cobb and finishing challenging rides so satisfying.
Luis
So I would say that the best way to avoid cramping is to ease off a little when you start feeling the little twinges. And then just increase training volume or intensity. I normally get in three or four hundred kilometers per week, about 20,000 km per year, most of it fairly low intensity since I stopped racing. And even with that I'm cramping up on extended intense efforts. But that's what makes getting over Cobb and finishing challenging rides so satisfying.
Luis
06-12-12 | 12:28 PM
#28
Zip tie Karen
Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 7,005
Likes: 1,546
From: Fair Oaks Ranch, TX
Bikes: '13 Motobecane Fantom29 HT, '16 Motobecane Turino Pro Disc, '18 Velobuild VB-R-022, '21 Tsunami SNM-100
Then my assumptions were wrong. You have enough base and should know what feels like a sustainable cadence for 40+ miles. Look elsewhere for answers - maybe more on the nutritional and stretching end.
06-12-12 | 02:25 PM
#29
Thread Starter
Senior Member
Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 649
Likes: 0
From: Oregon
The ride had more elevation gain then my normal rides. I think this was a determining factor, even though I took it easy spinning up hills without mashing.
Thanks again everyone. I'll keep working on fitness. I see now it takes lots of time that can't be rushed.
06-12-12 | 06:30 PM
#31
Broken neck Ken
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 5,221
Likes: 3,520
From: Portland, OR
Bikes: Trek Domane SL6 Gen 3, Soma Fog Cutter, Detroit Bikes Sparrow FG, Trek Mt Track XCNimbus MUni
Here are the theories:
...
The third hypothesis is advanced by Dr. Schwellnus. He questions the electrolyte hypothesis because his studies of Ironman-distance triathletes as well as other studies of endurance athletes found no difference in electrolyte levels between those who suffered cramps and those who did not.
DR. SCHWELLNUS proposes that the real cause of cramping is an imbalance between nerve signals that excite a muscle and those that inhibit its contractions. And that imbalance, he said, occurs when a muscle is growing fatigued.
His solutions for cramps are to exercise less intensely and for shorter times, to be sure you had enough carbohydrates to fuel your muscles, to train sufficiently and to regularly stretch the muscles that give you problems. These recommendations are based on his recent study of Ironman triathletes, Dr. Schwellnus said.
But while he advocates those practices, he said, they have not been proved in a rigorous study.
[/FONT][/COLOR][/LEFT]
...
The third hypothesis is advanced by Dr. Schwellnus. He questions the electrolyte hypothesis because his studies of Ironman-distance triathletes as well as other studies of endurance athletes found no difference in electrolyte levels between those who suffered cramps and those who did not.
DR. SCHWELLNUS proposes that the real cause of cramping is an imbalance between nerve signals that excite a muscle and those that inhibit its contractions. And that imbalance, he said, occurs when a muscle is growing fatigued.
His solutions for cramps are to exercise less intensely and for shorter times, to be sure you had enough carbohydrates to fuel your muscles, to train sufficiently and to regularly stretch the muscles that give you problems. These recommendations are based on his recent study of Ironman triathletes, Dr. Schwellnus said.
But while he advocates those practices, he said, they have not been proved in a rigorous study.
[/FONT][/COLOR][/LEFT]
I always assumed that cramping meant I'm essentially done on a ride. As I've gotten in to randonneuring the last couple years, I've been surprised to find I can recover fully and continue for hundreds of miles after a cramping episode.
06-12-12 | 08:30 PM
#32
Senior Member
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 6,900
Likes: 0
Cramping is still pretty much a mystery; mostly because no one has really studied the issue.
I could not disagree more with that statement. There have been hundreds of studies on cramping. The fact is that few actually die from cramping so it just is not a high profile medical issue to solve. If based on the number of research studies, cancer should have been cured long ago.
I have suffered cramping since about 12 years old. I too have experienced the 40 mile cramps the OP went through. When someone figures out how to prevent cramping you will be, in the words of Forrest Gump, a Gizzillionair. I will be the first to pay good money for the cure. I figure cramping is your brain telling your muscles that enough is enough.
I could not disagree more with that statement. There have been hundreds of studies on cramping. The fact is that few actually die from cramping so it just is not a high profile medical issue to solve. If based on the number of research studies, cancer should have been cured long ago.
I have suffered cramping since about 12 years old. I too have experienced the 40 mile cramps the OP went through. When someone figures out how to prevent cramping you will be, in the words of Forrest Gump, a Gizzillionair. I will be the first to pay good money for the cure. I figure cramping is your brain telling your muscles that enough is enough.
06-12-12 | 08:47 PM
#33
Senior Member
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 29,525
Likes: 13,528
From: In the foothills of Los Angeles County
I have had horrible cramps to the point I could not unclip and had to lean against a fence. I've cramped driving home from a ride when I couldn't lift my leg to push the clutch pedal. I've cramped so bad lying on the floor at home that I couldn't get up.
I never cramp, however, when I have been riding enough, no matter what hell-ride I do, as long as I am hydrated. I never stretch, have a terrible diet, and am at least 10 pounds overweight but I will try almost any climbing ride up to around 125 miles. There may be a genetic component involved.
I never cramp, however, when I have been riding enough, no matter what hell-ride I do, as long as I am hydrated. I never stretch, have a terrible diet, and am at least 10 pounds overweight but I will try almost any climbing ride up to around 125 miles. There may be a genetic component involved.
06-13-12 | 06:36 AM
#34
Senior Member
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 12,940
Likes: 363
Big John,
I think this is more true than most believe. Not a cover all answer but for a few, like me I believe it is the case. I have to take more fluids and eat bananas more while running (I miss those days badly) or riding to escape cramps. My father was the same way with his calves, mine is the quads, too. Wonder if this has been studied so I could read up on what others do for the problem. Interesting idea to me.
Bill
I think this is more true than most believe. Not a cover all answer but for a few, like me I believe it is the case. I have to take more fluids and eat bananas more while running (I miss those days badly) or riding to escape cramps. My father was the same way with his calves, mine is the quads, too. Wonder if this has been studied so I could read up on what others do for the problem. Interesting idea to me.
Bill
06-13-12 | 06:03 PM
#35
Senior Member
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 7,125
Likes: 111
From: Huntington Beach, CA
Bikes: Cervelo Prodigy
I tried Tums (calcium carbonate) and it works for me. I tried it when the muscles got tight and then I sensed that a cramp is starting. Its the Ultra Strength 1,000mg version per tablet. I chewed 2 of those and drank some of my drink. Of course, I stopped and waited for a couple of minutes just to make sure some of it gets absorbed.
I was able to complete the 53 miler with no muscle tightness. Sport Legs has calcium but also lactate.
https://www.sportlegs.com/what/what.asp
I was able to complete the 53 miler with no muscle tightness. Sport Legs has calcium but also lactate.
https://www.sportlegs.com/what/what.asp
06-13-12 | 06:50 PM
#36
Bike Junkie
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 9,625
Likes: 40
From: South of Raleigh, North of New Hill, East of Harris Lake, NC
Bikes: Specialized Tarmac, Specialized Roubaix, Giant OCR-C, Specialized Stumpjumper FSR, Stumpjumper Comp, 88 & 92Nishiki Ariel, 87 Centurion Ironman, 92 Paramount, 84 Nishiki Medalist
Absolutely a lack of hydration with electrolytes is the cause of the OPs cramps. The fact that it occurrs at around the same mileage and it's after considerable ride time is the significant clue. My "cramp fail" point is 32 to 38 miles. If I don't hydrate and hydrate with electrolytes, I fail at 32 to 38 miles. It's happened enough that I know I have to drink water with "elete" brand electrolytes in it to continue. On a typical ride, I drink a large water bottle with 20 drops of elete added by 20 miles. If I do that, no cramps, if I don't cramps occur at the predicted time. Actually, drinking just water without the elete electrolytes doesn't help that much, it just postpones the cramps a few miles.
OP, buy elete eletrolyte solution and use it.
OP, buy elete eletrolyte solution and use it.
__________________
Roccobike BF Official Thread Terminator
Roccobike BF Official Thread Terminator
06-14-12 | 01:43 AM
#37
Thread Starter
Senior Member
Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 649
Likes: 0
From: Oregon
Hydration or fitness, possibly both came into play. Appreciate the advice and the suggestion on elete eletrolyte soultion. First time I've heard of this product. How much do you add to 24 oz. of water?
06-14-12 | 10:32 AM
#38
Legs; OK! Lungs; not!
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 2,096
Likes: 10
From: Coral Springs, FL
Bikes: ''09 Motobecane Immortal Pro (Yellow), '02 Diamondback Hybrid, '09 Lamborghini Viaggio, ''11 Cervelo P2
Besides hydration, electrolytes, and "base miles" try some magnesium supplements like Slo-mag. It can take up to 6 weeks to work.
Most Americans are way low on Mag.
Most Americans are way low on Mag.
06-14-12 | 12:03 PM
#39
Legs; OK! Lungs; not!
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 2,096
Likes: 10
From: Coral Springs, FL
Bikes: ''09 Motobecane Immortal Pro (Yellow), '02 Diamondback Hybrid, '09 Lamborghini Viaggio, ''11 Cervelo P2
I'm a strong believer there are multiple causes, and many are not understood. This third hypothesis fits my personal experience quite well.
I always assumed that cramping meant I'm essentially done on a ride. As I've gotten in to randonneuring the last couple years, I've been surprised to find I can recover fully and continue for hundreds of miles after a cramping episode.
I always assumed that cramping meant I'm essentially done on a ride. As I've gotten in to randonneuring the last couple years, I've been surprised to find I can recover fully and continue for hundreds of miles after a cramping episode.
We had to do a "cyclocross" over part of a golf course to get back on the levee for the finish. I was careful to not work too hard in the grass or on the ascent up the levee. I was able to get it back up to 22 by mile 105. When they pushed it back up to 28+ in the final 2 mi, this old man dropped out at 26 as my HR was up to 90% and I could "feel" a cramp coming on.
So indeed, properly handled a cramp does not mean the end of the ride. Just slow down and spin faster at the first signs of a cramp.
06-14-12 | 12:47 PM
#40
Senior Member
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 3,957
Likes: 3
From: Hollister, CA
Bikes: Volagi, daVinci Joint Venture
06-14-12 | 05:49 PM
#41
Legs; OK! Lungs; not!
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 2,096
Likes: 10
From: Coral Springs, FL
Bikes: ''09 Motobecane Immortal Pro (Yellow), '02 Diamondback Hybrid, '09 Lamborghini Viaggio, ''11 Cervelo P2
06-14-12 | 08:35 PM
#42
Senior Member
Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 3,119
Likes: 159
From: Kalamazoo, Mi.
Bikes: Sam, The Hunq and that Old Guy, Soma Buena Vista, Giant Talon 2, Brompton
V8. One serving has 10 times the potassium contained in a serving of Gatorade. That's why bikers eat bananas, the potassium. I discovered this after a friend showed up at a bike club meeting drinking a can. Since then, I have had a small glass with breakfast, a small glass in the evening, and replaced the sugar filled crap called sports drinks with plain water. Worked for me!
Marc
Marc
06-14-12 | 11:31 PM
#43
Thread Starter
Senior Member
Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 649
Likes: 0
From: Oregon
V8. One serving has 10 times the potassium contained in a serving of Gatorade. That's why bikers eat bananas, the potassium. I discovered this after a friend showed up at a bike club meeting drinking a can. Since then, I have had a small glass with breakfast, a small glass in the evening, and replaced the sugar filled crap called sports drinks with plain water. Worked for me!
Marc
Marc
Great advice, thank you!!
06-15-12 | 04:18 AM
#44
Senior Member
Joined: Oct 2011
Posts: 2,714
Likes: 13
From: Normal, Illinois
Bikes: Trek 600 ,1980Raleigh Competition G.S., 1986 Schwinn Passage, Facet Biotour 2000, Falcon San Remo 531,Schwinn Sierra, Sun Seeker tricycle recumbent,1985 Bianchi Squadra
Does V8 have a lot of sodium ? Always struck me as kind of salty.
06-15-12 | 05:44 AM
#45
Senior Member
Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 3,119
Likes: 159
From: Kalamazoo, Mi.
Bikes: Sam, The Hunq and that Old Guy, Soma Buena Vista, Giant Talon 2, Brompton
06-16-12 | 07:29 AM
#46
Senior Member
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 589
Likes: 0
IMO your cadence is too high for that distance relative to your fitness level. That simple.
Inadequate fuel.. not. Unless your ZERO body fat. Body does burn fat directly with prolonged exercise.
Inadequate fuel.. not. Unless your ZERO body fat. Body does burn fat directly with prolonged exercise.
Last edited by SortaGrey; 06-16-12 at 09:24 AM. Reason: Clarity on first pt.
06-16-12 | 07:49 AM
#47
2 Fat 2 Furious
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 3,996
Likes: 2
From: England
Bikes: 2009 Specialized Rockhopper Comp Disc, 2009 Specialized Tricross Sport RIP
Twice now, both legs started cramping at 40 miles. I could't get off the saddle without severe muscle tightness in the quads and medial greats, just above the knees. I didn't have this problem last year on rides between 40 and 80 miles. Had sore legs, but not severe cramping.
Saturday started good, I felt strong for the first 30 miles. Then at apx. 45 miles, I stood up to power over a slight incline and the thigh muscles on both legs cramped up. I could hardly move the pedals, the cramping was extremely painful and debilitating. Once the pain sub-sided slightly, I down shifted to lower gears to try spinning faster and downing a bottle of an electrolyte drink (Nuun). I rode easy for several more miles and the legs started to respond. But I could never fully recover, any hill or incline was still painfully challenging. I rode with 2 buddies and we finished 85 miles in 5 hours and 40 minutes total riding time. We weren't riding for speed, just cruising at a comfortable pace.
So what is the biggest reason why muscles cramp and are there other factors?
My list of things to consider...
1) Hydration
2) Inadequate fuel, carbs
3) Poor conditioning
4) Not enough base riding
5) Bike fit
On #5, I'm not sure if the saddle height or setback is optimum, need to have this checked. I've switched off between saddles and may have this setup slightly off. Sunday, I measured the saddle height and it was low (again), raised it 4mm before a recovery ride and the height felt good. Could a low saddle cause cramps?
Thanks for the help
Saturday started good, I felt strong for the first 30 miles. Then at apx. 45 miles, I stood up to power over a slight incline and the thigh muscles on both legs cramped up. I could hardly move the pedals, the cramping was extremely painful and debilitating. Once the pain sub-sided slightly, I down shifted to lower gears to try spinning faster and downing a bottle of an electrolyte drink (Nuun). I rode easy for several more miles and the legs started to respond. But I could never fully recover, any hill or incline was still painfully challenging. I rode with 2 buddies and we finished 85 miles in 5 hours and 40 minutes total riding time. We weren't riding for speed, just cruising at a comfortable pace.
So what is the biggest reason why muscles cramp and are there other factors?
My list of things to consider...
1) Hydration
2) Inadequate fuel, carbs
3) Poor conditioning
4) Not enough base riding
5) Bike fit
On #5, I'm not sure if the saddle height or setback is optimum, need to have this checked. I've switched off between saddles and may have this setup slightly off. Sunday, I measured the saddle height and it was low (again), raised it 4mm before a recovery ride and the height felt good. Could a low saddle cause cramps?
Thanks for the help
I've found that sometimes after 50-60 miles my legs cramp but those are the days I didn't drink enough. Either because I wasn't hydrated when I set off, or because it was a hotter day than usual and I didn't drink enough, or if I just pushed myself harder without taking on more fluids to compensate. If I take on enough fluids, electrolytes and calories I don't have the same issues.
Since I'm comparing rides where my conditioning and base riding are identical and the bike is identical it leads me to look at 1 and 2 before the others.
__________________
"For a list of ways technology has failed to improve quality of life, press three"
"For a list of ways technology has failed to improve quality of life, press three"
06-18-12 | 01:40 PM
#48
Newbie
Joined: Mar 2012
Posts: 4
Likes: 0
Try Hammer Endurolyte capsules! It might sound like a commercial, but it really has worked for me when sometimes muscle cramps have been debilitating for me. I suffered greatly before trying this.
Also, coconut water is great, and I will drink some prior to a hot workout. Even better, try a bottle of 'elete electrolyte' add-in. You just squirt a little into your water bottle. Both coconut water and the electe product are a bit of an aquired taste, so it doesn't hurt to squirt something more flavorful in as well.
Both products can be bought at Scheel's or probably other large sporting goods stores.
A big difference with both of these is that they include magnesium, which is not often found in other sport drinks. They also have b vitamins that I am guessing help it become easily ingested.
Anyway, I have literally been stranded with muscle cramps while riding, and this has eradicated the problem for me. Best of luck to you
Also, coconut water is great, and I will drink some prior to a hot workout. Even better, try a bottle of 'elete electrolyte' add-in. You just squirt a little into your water bottle. Both coconut water and the electe product are a bit of an aquired taste, so it doesn't hurt to squirt something more flavorful in as well.
Both products can be bought at Scheel's or probably other large sporting goods stores.
A big difference with both of these is that they include magnesium, which is not often found in other sport drinks. They also have b vitamins that I am guessing help it become easily ingested.
Anyway, I have literally been stranded with muscle cramps while riding, and this has eradicated the problem for me. Best of luck to you
06-19-12 | 05:32 PM
#49
Junior Member
Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 7
Likes: 0
From: Near Atlanta
Bikes: Geneis Tarra 700c from Walmart
All of the above advice is great but if it doesn't work and I start to get a cramp I put pressure on my upper lip, either by pressing with my finger or biting (gently). This has relieved leg, toe, hand, and finger cramps for me in about 30 seconds.
Regards
Bottomgun Bill
Regards
Bottomgun Bill
06-19-12 | 09:52 PM
#50
Legs; OK! Lungs; not!
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 2,096
Likes: 10
From: Coral Springs, FL
Bikes: ''09 Motobecane Immortal Pro (Yellow), '02 Diamondback Hybrid, '09 Lamborghini Viaggio, ''11 Cervelo P2
I learned at the first sign of leg cramps to push your heels down, increase your cadence, and reduce the power applied to the pedals. Your speed will slow, but you will spin it out. And keeping your heels down will stretch the muscles in the back of the legs.