wait, a coach had them doing leg extensions?

Yea the 65 year old in the video, or this guy in the 70s

I have not seen mass gains from heavy weights and miles.
Heavy - real heavy, do neurological things where strength increases without mass.

That explains a lot. The risk is not worth it, a review of the literature would be useful

Huh?
Risk? Those 3 are the least injured juniors (then) I know of.
You may be reading into this a bit too much.
A multi time Mr Olympia (World) bodybuilding champion had kids doing machines over free movement exactly to avoid injury.
He also trained some football kids, tennis kids etc.
Way less risk than the other kids that road/rode themselves into tendentious, and various other fatigue injuries.

I really don't get it. A day in the gym vs a day on the road and we are concerned about risk?
I'd have to look up cyclist gym deaths, but so far - I have not heard of any.

Climbing at altitude seems to help me the most. I should start interval training, once I figure out how to do it with all these mountains around. I do have a couple of flat routes I can try. My buddy who races, says interval training helped him the most, along with big climbs. Of course, he also lost about 15 lbs along the way so that could not have hurt one bit.

If I was at the gym looking for other ways to improve my cycling power/conditioning, I would do basketball conditioning drills. They would improve your explosiveness/power plus the conditioning that goes along with it. It would only add 5-10 minutes to your workout. Look up the drills "17s" and "suicides/lines." Do them at the end of your workout. Make sure you have someone there that forces you to hustle.

Do you mean the additional risk by adding weightlifting to your regimen? Well, it's not like cycling, itself, is without its risk. It is probably even riskier these days given all of the distracted driving going on.

As I intimated a bit earlier on, I think one could make the case that a little additional muscle helps protect a rider in falls. Too many pro cyclists run around looking like so many anorexic supermodels. It's not healthy.

Sagan lifts, as do other winners.
I know, this is not racing, but the idea that a short distance rider would not benefit from weights is incorrect. I don't hear that from those that lift .

So to get to the point, weight lifting 30% of your training time is better than using that same time riding, or doing intervals.

I'm not sure how much leg weight lifting will help a 20 minute ftp, without the engine (cardio) may not matter.


Anecdotally I increased the amount of leg presses and increased the weight over this winter. I believe that I am able to power through hills much better for 15-30 seconds on demand. After that my cardio again limits me.


The other issue is for normal fit mortals, its extremely difficult to add muscle mass without increasing weight. Therefore your likely to gain weight which may be a negative for long pulls up elevation or if one's real goal is watts/kg

Right.
But you can add strength without adding mass.
Much is training your muscles what they can do.

I'm talking specifically about the leg extensions, which is a pretty outdated exercise. Nothing wrong with free movement either if proper form is used which a coach should easily be able to teach

specifically the leg extensions.

And that applies to absolutely everyone, right?

I agree. There is a quite a bit of literature out there that show the leg extension is not a beneficial exercise, or at least the risk to benefit is too high to incorporate into any credible training program. As one coach put it, it gives you a good pump, and that's about it.

The squat is supreme in every way!

More those trying to get more power in ~1hour events and have 5-10 hours/week to train. Then, yea, I'd expect "everyone" would get more cycling power faster moving ~30% of their training time to the gym.

A lot of this discussion happened 2-3 years ago here https://www.bikeforums.net/17283630-post315.html
I think there is a video in there of Sagan doing leg extensions.
I jumped in about post 130 on reasons junior did not use squats - for cycling.

https://www.bikeforums.net/17217188-post179.html

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3554602/

When you say 'more cycling power,' do you mean across all durations? I can see lifting improving my five second max, but will it also increase my one hour power? Do you have any data to support that? I'd be interested to see it.

Is Carmichael wrong then?

[MENTION=78894]Carbonfiberboy[/MENTION] needs to chime in here. He has stories about one-legged cyclists doing 30 mph on the flat and climbing mountain passes. Cycling isn't about leg strength (except at very short durations like for sprinters), it's about aerobic capacity.

Carbonfiberboy already chimmed in. I am asking Doge if he has any more evidence, apart from 'my kid and Sagan lift.' I am genuinely interested, just so we're clear. I tend to agree with your claim but I am not knowledgeable enough on the topic, so I am interested in resources that would show otherwise.

I realize he already chimed in once; you quoted him. I think his one-legged cyclists are a very good reason to think it's not about leg strength, since they should have half as much of it as anyone else and it's not holding them back. I'd like to hear more about this.

See the link to the Weight Training thread.
Mostly experience with juniors that lift vs juniors that don't. The lifters have occupied the top step in the ~30mm VOS TTs against another 70 or so kids. There are also very talented and winning riders that don't lift, but they seem to have put double the time into training. The lifting is for time efficiency. I'm not going to argue doing on-the-bike sprints won't work, just weights work very well.
I have many, while unscientific, data points in the :30 range, I really have just my kid for the hour. If you believe your FTP can be calculated off of :20 min power - sure. I'm not a big fan of calculated numbers, but I would expect some benefit. There is a video somewhere of Sagan doing leg extensions. So he thought it had some benefit to longer rides, likely for the finish, not FTP (this thread), same as other World Tour road sprinters known to lift.
If riding alone, maybe hour FTP increases (which is the topic) may be small, but if in a group, it is the extra power 15 sec at the end that moves you to the front that matters most.

As to adding mass. The lifting juniors over 4 years did not significantly increase mass and increased W/Kg. The kids grew from 14 to 18, but maintained about the same proportions and looked like their peers who didn't lift. The lifters also had less training/over use fatigue that was/is common to juniors putting in the big miles. Other elite kids did not lift, but they did/do spend much more time on the bike than the lifters I know.
For "fun" find the gym kid/s here. I know some of the lifters here and some aren't and have no idea on others (my son moved on, and is not pictured). It is very hard to tell by looking. LUX Cycling Team

Chris Carmichael renders an opinion "Ten years ago I would have told you that if you’re a cyclist, strength training is a waste of time and effort. Not anymore." Do Cyclists Benefit From Strength Training? - CTS without citing sources. The guy that helped get him fame was clearly talented, but also "supplementing" with banned substances as were his juniors.
I expect I am watching "cleaner" subjects. BTW - I agree with Chris Carmichael, just that source citing is difficult.

I still am exposed a lot with college age and juniors - and same lifting with the team now in college.
Lifting becomes more important at altitude as (there is a source for it someplace) muscle mass in cyclists is lower for those that live at altitude.