Why are some of you crazy suckers called vegans anyway? I thought Vegan's were little blue fellas from Vega?

You mean they aren't?? Sh¡t, maybe Lesbians aren't creatures from Lesbia either!

Not to be seen pluggin dell. The widescreen panels are really good. Probably better than the apple ones, cost less (23" apple $2099, 24" Dell anywhere around $1500) and look as good. (I know thats heresy)

Other dell stuff is absolute crap though

Macs are just Dell's by another name in a different colour now anyway. That it's the best thing that could have happened to Apple is another point.

vegans dont have any animal based products at all, so no cheese milk, eggs etc. ouch.

then you go walking round newtown, go to the vego / vegan eatery and see an army of people wearing leather doc martens. kinda funny, jsut like all the anti globalisation protestors that went into Maccas in the city after thier protests a couple of years ago.

btw, i wear docs so that makes my a hypocrite as well

You don't really need the dates

If we're not supoosed to eat meat, how come it tastes so good

well it depends why you are doing it. If it because you reckon the health benefits are worth it, a more efficient way to produve food than no. If you are vego because you are thinking of the animals than you a hypocrite.

Just curious, but what is your reason for going vegetarian?

A couple of points (and I am in no way trying to dissuade you from a vegetarian diet) Vit B12 is essential for making red blood cells, unfortunately, humans do not have the ability to manufacture this vitamin. Fortunately, we normally have substantial internal reserves so a dietary lack of Vitamin B12 can take a year or two to show up. The best food source is shellfish like oysters, mussels and scallops (which provide something like 5-6 times the average daily requirement), liver is the next best source. Plants do not make it onto the list in any way shape or form unless you eat raw mushrooms that haven't been washed coz then you pick up the B12 made by the bacteria in the growth medium. However, some processed foods (cereals spring to mind) are fortified with B12 so you do have some alternatives if you choose a meat free diet.

You also need to mix your grains and pulses appropriately to make sure you get all the essential amino acids in your diet - amino acids are necessary for protein synthesis and a couple of other things in the body. The body can make most of them but the essential amino acids are the ones the human body cannot make. Getting the grains and pulses thing right takes a bit of work and thought so you should make some effort to become knowledgable if you want a HEALTHY vegetarian diet. Of course, you can always be lazy and have an unhealthy vego diet and then make up for the lack of nutrition by swallowing bucketloads of supplements, but that kind of defeats the purpose a little, methinks.

A good cookbook for vegetarian stuff is "Fresh Ways With Vegetarian Cooking" part of the Healthy Home Cooking series published by Time-Life books - don't know if it is still in print, I bought my copy in Dymocks several years ago. Also, Indian cookbooks are a good source of vego recipes.

BTW, I am not vegetarian, but non-meat dishes form the primary focus of my diet - I eat red meat maybe once every two months or so and fish almost weekly. That said, I am about to pull a home-made terrine out of the freezer which will take the two of us about 4 meals to finish so that will substantially skew my meat eating average.

what is this wind up the vegos day? (note: Im not vego yet and it will be at least 6months before I call myself one)

Dont get me wrong a good steak/roast/meat pizza is great I just wanna try something different. Chicken is overrated though. Too many steroids and crap pumped into them.
Soy is also bad for GM as well. One reason why Im gonna go for the sustagen over soy. No labeling in Aus makes it hard to keep away from that stuff.

Shouldn't we be talking about bikes? I just wanted a few pointers not start a few pages of discussion of diffferent types of diets.

Yum, steak & salad for dins?

Hey, this is the Aussie thread! We can talk about whatever we want.

Anyway, you bastids are making me miss Survivor!!

Matagi, you've obviously thought about this a lot. Have you progressed past the practical machinations of eating less meat and seen the global ramifications of the Western meat based diet? That's the core of the issue, or should be for most vegos or wouldbe vegos. The B12 and Protenin Myths are just that - myths. The core issues involve what a meat based diet is not only doing to our lifestyles, but also how that globally is effecting the rest of the world.

Plus, I kinda think sheep and cows are cute

OT - I got asked to design a cow motif bike once. Only just occurred to me that the customer (a hobby farmer) might actually eat them. Yeah, turn something into an icon, then eat it! "I love my cows so much, I desgned my bike after them! Then I rode that bike out into the paddock and shot one in the head! Then I skinned it and ate it! Boy, my bike is COOL!"

See, ya live and learn

I'm on holidays in a few weeks, and will definitely be grinding down Beach Rd to see what all the fuss is about.
Maybe you should grind up the Dandenongs with the vego's

there is a kiwi thread for that sort of behaviour

Crikey, another brainwashed vego!! Why don't you just live on raw fruit a fresh air?!!

Are you getting any b12 or iron? I hope some of that factory food you eat, bulked up with sawdust and cardboard, is fortified. The frightening thing about b12 deficiencies is that it can take up to 20 years for neural damage to occur; damage which is irreparable. Therefore, b12 is the one vitamin that can't be messed with. There's enough in small amaounts of cows milk.

Like I said earlier, the following info is from VEGAN/VEG WEBSITES, so it's obviously not anti-vegan or anti-veg:

"There are no reliable, unfortified plant sources of vitamin B12, therefore fortified foods and/or supplements are necessary for the optimal health of vegans and even vegetarians in many cases"
https://www.veganhealth.org/sh#vitaminb12

"The only reliable vegan sources of B12 are foods fortified with B12, and B12 supplements."
https://www.vegansociety.com/html/food/nutrition/b12/

"Plant foods do not contain vitamin B12 except when they are contaminated by microorganisms"
https://www.vrg.org/nutrition/b12.htm

"The only reliable unfortified sources of vitamin B12 are meat, dairy products and eggs. There has been considerable research into possible plant food sources of B12. However, analysis of fermented soya products, etc...................found no significant B12."
https://www.vegsoc.org/info/b12.html



is stuff is referenced, the references can be check. All of the Colpo stuff is referenced, as is most of the Western Price stuff.

see what meat can do to a guy kotter?

I've got those books here somewhere. The Horne is stuff is basically a more kooky, and totally unreferenced version of Pritikin, and it's also pretty old now. I can't remember what exactly, but some of it is really out there, and made me think he was a bit of a nut

OH MY FARKIN GOD. Now I'm actually getting a little mad. Please, dudes; protein, veganism, low carbs, high carbs...whatever, is one thing, but messing with B12 in the long term is dangerous.The b12 FACTS are even on VEGAN WEBSITES!!! See above post.


more stuff from a vegan website:

"Overt B12 Deficiency: B12 protects the nervous system. Without it, permanent damage can result (e.g., blindness, deafness, dementia). Fatigue, and tingling in the hands or feet, can be early signs of deficiency. B12 also keeps the digestive system healthy."

"Mild B12 Deficiency: By lowering homocysteine levels, B12 also reduces the risk of heart disease, stroke, and other diseases. Vegans and near-vegans who do not supplement with vitamin B12 have consistently shown elevated homocysteine levels. Since 1999, there have been 12 studies comparing the homocysteine levels of vegans and vegetarians who do not supplement their diet with vitamin B12 to those of non-vegetarians. In every study, the vegans or vegetarians had higher homocysteine levels than the meat-eatersand in the range associated with an increased risk of heart disease and stroke."

https://www.veganhealth.org/sh#vitaminb12


B12 and Chronic Disease
https://www.veganhealth.org/b12/hcy

This one is from a raw foodist -- they're even more extreme than your average vegan
https://www.fruitnut.net//index2.htm?PAG=50B12,REF=

Even these nutjob, extreme raw foodists confirm they experienced b12 deficiences. One complete kook even considered the possibility of eating human poop and drinking their own urine to get traces of the vitamin, rather than take a supplement!!
https://hostedstuff.com/services/foru...=2&thread=3432

at 90kgs, I have a slight disadvantage in the Dandebongs

aussie, you dun have to worry about b12. every decent aussie kid is raised on vegemite, made from beer, and enters adult life with enuf b12 in their liver to survive 30 aussie summers of drinkin, smokin 'n' rootn. that amount could probably save 500,000 vegan children from dying of malnutrition, but that's not important right now.

If you take the trouble to source organic free range chicken, it is a different thing altogether. Downside is it costs about 4 times as much as a factory farmed bird and it isn't in general distribution.

Probably, but I'm now a bit worried about Wazza

dun worry aboot him, he's made from a Ti/berrilium alloy and is tougher than steel. impossible to weld, tho

to matagi I just want to try something different. Also in the process of being as green as I can. ie car free, and not eating meat contributes alot to reducing greenhouse emissions. Meat can also lead to heart problems later in life. My family havent exactly lived to old age so there is not much history available about heart disease etc. So I want to avoid it the best I can. Diabetes spring to mind as well. After watching a few things lately as well like Steven Spurlock its made me kinda rethink the **** I eat. I was heading down the path of eating too much KFC etc. To me vegetarism is a logical progression for me - at least to try
I know if you dont eat correctly while a vego your worse off than if you ate meat. Thats the reason I asked here. I trust you guys to give me good advice. A lot of vego sites are made by nutters, that shouldn't be listened to. Someone also mentioned there are some nutters in the nutrition section in this forum, so I'm keeping away.

I am worried about B12 so I am definately going to watch that, buy cereals that are fortified and If Im not getting enough either I will take vitamins or seriously consider eating meat. I am also going to invest in some up to date cookbooks, with some sort of table to see if Im getting enough of vitamins etc.
I did not know about amino acids so I am going to read about them tomorrow, I guess they will be very important to me since cycling is my only transportation and if I decide to race later on (when I have enough bucks to buy another bike).
This is the big but for me. If I notice I am not getting enough vitamins and minerals for a healthy lifestyle, Im out, and heading for the nearest kebab shop. Whats the point of being vego if it makes you less healthy than before? Dont take me wrong I want to do this but idealism shouldnt get in the way of your health. By doing the necessary research and buying the right cookbooks I hope to be as healthy or more by being vego.

Thylacine, my philosophy is simply based on eating as well as I can and that includes ensuring (as far as I can) that any meat I eat comes from animals raised and treated well. Downside is, this kind of meat is not easy to source and costs substantially more than the intensively raised stuff you buy in the supermarket. Especially in Sydney where specialist butchers are as rare as hen's teeth. Besides which, I am extremely partial to a nice rare steak, I just don't feel I need to have it every night. I'm a "moderation in all things" kind of girl.

Hate to tell you this, but if you stop eating them, farmers will stop raising them and they will cease to exist just like the 400 varieties of pig that have disappeared since the 19th century due to changing eating habits. No seriously, did you know the Gloucester Old Spot was on the endangered list until a few years ago?

The chicken you buy now is rubbish. When was the last time anyone here ate a chook that had goose pimples on it's skin? About 1982 for me. They knock the bloody tasteless things on the head at 6 weeks.