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Vanilla Bicycles

Old 09-18-08, 11:21 AM
  #76  
baxtefer
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Originally Posted by Rikardi151 View Post
Sorry dude, but Mike DeSalvo is hardly some "random builder".
yes, but for the price of a SpeedVagen you could get 2 full custom DeSalvos with a tubing upgrade. You'd only be giving up:
- the seatmast (meh)
- integrated brake mounts
- some shiny bits
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Old 09-18-08, 11:36 AM
  #77  
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Originally Posted by dutret View Post
How?
It's a high-end, super light, custom steel race frame. Unfortunately, that combination isn't cheap regardless what people think.

BTW... the "base price" you see on most builders sites is just that... the basic. Add custom geometry, light tubes, and other options (not to mention an Alpha Q fork), and you're at 3K, or more.

Last edited by sfcrossrider; 09-18-08 at 11:40 AM.
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Old 09-18-08, 11:48 AM
  #78  
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Originally Posted by sfcrossrider View Post
It's a high-end, super light, custom steel race frame. Unfortunately, that combination isn't cheap regardless what people think.

BTW... the "base price" you see on most builders sites is just that... the basic. Add custom geometry, light tubes, and other options (not to mention an Alpha Q fork), and you're at 3K, or more.
the steelman that you compare the speedvagen to is $2800. It's still expensive but it's $700 less. And there are plenty of builders that can do the same thing for even less than that. I've ridden on high end steel bikes and I bet that in a blind test none of you would perform better than chance in distinguishing builders.
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Old 09-18-08, 11:48 AM
  #79  
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Originally Posted by sacha white View Post
Additionally, you get to work with a company that pays a living wage to it's employees, health insurance, profit sharing etc. Pays their paint shop a price that can afford it's employees the same standard of living.

In short, there are a lot of less expensive companies out there. That's fine. For me, when considering what I want my bikes to be and how to build my company, how cheaply I can do something is near the bottom of my list of priorities.
That would make me want to buy one of your bikes alone, not only are they crazy nice, but to support the people who make them like that is important. I wonder what other builders could say that? Even some of the higherend builders prolly only pay min wage. I know alot of people don't give a **** as long as they get what they want, so is capitalism, but when I think about a premium, I like to look at all aspects.
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Old 09-18-08, 11:57 AM
  #80  
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i think that mike desalvo builds for the vanilla workshop on the speedvagen project.
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Old 09-18-08, 12:01 PM
  #81  
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Originally Posted by dutret View Post
the steelman that you compare the speedvagen to is $2800. It's still expensive but it's $700 less. And there are plenty of builders that can do the same thing for even less than that. I've ridden on high end steel bikes and I bet that in a blind test none of you would perform better than chance in distinguishing builders.
There is an entire cross community that races his frames who would disagree with you, but you're entitled to your opinion.

I have raced many custom frames in the last 20 years, and I certainly can tell the difference between the frames I have raced on. That said, I LOVE my ten year old Surly, crosscheck. BUT...I love my Steelman even more fifty minutes into a Cat A cross race.

Last edited by sfcrossrider; 09-18-08 at 08:29 PM.
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Old 09-18-08, 01:07 PM
  #82  
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Originally Posted by dutret View Post
good job avoiding direct questions in favor or straw men.
The average sale price for frame and fork in the last 12 months is $2700 and the average wait has been 20ish months. This is in line with other shops this size.

Now it's your turn.

What knowledge/ experience are you (or anyone here) basing your opinions on. Not just with my company, but with any builder?
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Old 09-18-08, 01:09 PM
  #83  
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Originally Posted by sfcrossrider View Post
I have raced many custom frames in the last 20 years, and I certainly can tell the difference between the frames I have raced on. That said, I LOVE my ten year old Surly, crosscheck. BUT...I love my Steelman even more fifty minutes into a Cat A cross race.
You really think you could tell the difference between two bikes made with equivalent tubing and geometry? Yeah sure different builders will do slightly different things with the butting but really it doesn't make all that much of a difference. Builders can build drastically different frames but if you say I want something like this steelman you're not going to get something all that different.
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Old 09-18-08, 01:19 PM
  #84  
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Originally Posted by baxtefer View Post
yes, but for the price of a SpeedVagen you could get 2 full custom DeSalvos with a tubing upgrade. You'd only be giving up:
- the seatmast (meh)
- integrated brake mounts
- some shiny bits
If the design elements of the Speedvagen aren't important to you, fair enough. You can find a frame without them for less.

If we are going to talk about the validity of the cost, given the details that make a Speedvagen a Speedvagen, we have to compare apples to apples.

Go ask Mike D how much he would charge to build a speedvagen for you. He knows what goes into them and how long the build process takes, how much the proprietary pieces cost etc.
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Old 09-18-08, 01:25 PM
  #85  
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Originally Posted by dutret View Post
You really think you could tell the difference between two bikes made with equivalent tubing and geometry? Yeah sure different builders will do slightly different things with the butting but really it doesn't make all that much of a difference. Builders can build drastically different frames but if you say I want something like this steelman you're not going to get something all that different.
But they aren't equivalent. They are different.

Maybe you need to ride some of these bikes, rather then speculate. Go out to the races. Test ride. Talk to people in the real world. Get some experience. It might take a while to adjust to the society outside of the message board, but it will begin to feel good, honest.
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Old 09-18-08, 01:31 PM
  #86  
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Originally Posted by sacha white View Post
But they aren't equivalent. They are different.

Maybe you need to ride some of these bikes, rather then speculate. Go out to the races. Test ride. Talk to people in the real world. Get some experience. It might take a while to adjust to the society outside of the message board, but it will begin to feel good, honest.
You still haven't answered direct questions. I may not have ridden any of your bikes but I've ridden others and I've never been impressed with that much of a difference. Anyway I do "go out to the races" and I've never seen one of your bikes at a race down here (though I think I've seen one or two in the pnw).
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Old 09-18-08, 02:04 PM
  #87  
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Dutret,

You aren't being forced to buy a Vanilla, so why all the confrontation? Supporting artisan frame builders and paying people a living wage is a good thing. If people want to buy Vanilla and they find some value in it, then great.

My personal opinion is that perfect paint never made a bike go faster, but some people care about and pay for the cosmetics.

It is good to see an actual frame builder here so turn down the flames a notch.
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Old 09-18-08, 02:15 PM
  #88  
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Originally Posted by JackD View Post
Dutret,

You aren't being forced to buy a Vanilla, so why all the confrontation? Supporting artisan frame builders and paying people a living wage is a good thing. If people want to buy Vanilla and they find some value in it, then great.

My personal opinion is that perfect paint never made a bike go faster, but some people care about and pay for the cosmetics.

It is good to see an actual frame builder here so turn down the flames a notch.
+1 dutret should ride and take a chill pill for a change.
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Old 09-18-08, 02:20 PM
  #89  
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[QUOTE=dutret;7496852]You really think you could tell the difference between two bikes made with equivalent tubing and geometry? Yeah sure different builders will do slightly different things with the butting but really it doesn't make all that much of a difference. Builders can build drastically different frames but if you say I want something like this steelman you're not going to get something all that different.[/QUOTE]

Funny you mention... When Brent stopped building frames in 06 (he has since started back) several racers I know had "other" builders copy his design, and tubing exactly to replace old frames. NONE of them were happy with the end result. Brent knows how to make a Steelman, a Steelman.

I think he's a witch.


(edit) These racers wanted a Steelman, that's why they weren't happy. The replacement frames were awesome, and rode perfect, they just weren't what the riders had in mind.

Last edited by sfcrossrider; 09-18-08 at 02:25 PM.
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Old 09-18-08, 02:21 PM
  #90  
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Originally Posted by dutret View Post
You still haven't answered direct questions. I may not have ridden any of your bikes but I've ridden others and I've never been impressed with that much of a difference. Anyway I do "go out to the races" and I've never seen one of your bikes at a race down here (though I think I've seen one or two in the pnw).
Post #82.
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Old 09-18-08, 02:55 PM
  #91  
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Originally Posted by JackD View Post
Dutret,

You aren't being forced to buy a Vanilla, so why all the confrontation? Supporting artisan frame builders and paying people a living wage is a good thing. If people want to buy Vanilla and they find some value in it, then great.

My personal opinion is that perfect paint never made a bike go faster, but some people care about and pay for the cosmetics.

It is good to see an actual frame builder here so turn down the flames a notch.
I've said many times that I think sacha makes quality bikes just not that much more quality than plenty of other builders. Don't attribute his strawman positions to me.

Originally Posted by sacha white View Post
Post #82.
indeed you did. Last time I checked your site the wait was three times that and the 2700 was pretty close to the starting price(not guaranteed at time of delivery). 20months is longer than I would wait for a bike but It's not absurd like 5+ years.
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Old 09-18-08, 03:11 PM
  #92  
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Originally Posted by sacha white View Post
I wonder who is building bikes at these companies now? Do you know?

I think the same can be said about the biggest naysayers here. They are trash talking based on a couple of surface details rather than educating themselves and considering what else goes into the process that adds value.
Last I heard, Mario Camilotto was still building all the SC's at Cinelli. I believe he has been there since the late 70's. Mercian's are built by Derek Land who also started in the 70's. I don't know who builds Waterford, so I will concede that point to you.

Sorry my opinion rubbed you the wrong way. I do like your bikes and I certainly didn't mean to insult your craftsmanship. If I had that kind of income and the patience I'd consider placing an order. However, my impression is that a premium is being charged for all of those little cosmetic doo dads, dingleberries etc, etc. If I wanted a Cinelli SC, I could spend $1000 less and have it 17 months sooner, that doesn't seem like such a bad deal. In terms of ride quality, I think it's fair to say that both machines are comparable, no?

You obviously know your business better than I, but like it or not, I am the type of person who is a potential customer. Something to consider.

Last edited by TNCLR; 09-18-08 at 03:54 PM.
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Old 09-18-08, 05:44 PM
  #93  
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Originally Posted by TNCLR View Post
Last I heard, Mario Camilotto was still building all the SC's at Cinelli. I believe he has been there since the late 70's. Mercian's are built by Derek Land who also started in the 70's. I don't know who builds Waterford, so I will concede that point to you.

Sorry my opinion rubbed you the wrong way. I do like your bikes and I certainly didn't mean to insult your craftsmanship. If I had that kind of income and the patience I'd consider placing an order. However, my impression is that a premium is being charged for all of those little cosmetic doo dads, dingleberries etc, etc. If I wanted a Cinelli SC, I could spend $1000 less and have it 17 months sooner, that doesn't seem like such a bad deal. In terms of ride quality, I think it's fair to say that both machines are comparable, no?

You obviously know your business better than I, but like it or not, I am the type of person who is a potential customer. Something to consider.
I wasn't insulted by what you said, at all.

I saw a parallel in what you said about those who favor Vanilla, focusing on paint and doo-dads and the people on this forum who want to have a reason to not like Vanilla. They are getting as far as the surface and no farther, leaving them armed with an arguement like "Vanilla is hyped up because of shiny stuff and fancy paint". That's great for someone who wants to be a loud talker in a sea of loud talkers, but if they wanted to educate themselves about the reality, the opportunity is there.

For the record, if I was building a bike like the Cinelli SC, it would also be $1000 cheaper and ready years sooner. Cinelli is already doing that, though and I am building Vanillas. Two different animals.

-Sacha
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Old 09-18-08, 05:46 PM
  #94  
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Originally Posted by dutret View Post
indeed you did. Last time I checked your site the wait was three times that and the 2700 was pretty close to the starting price(not guaranteed at time of delivery). 20months is longer than I would wait for a bike but It's not absurd like 5+ years.
You asked for stats on the last year, right? I can't give you stats on the future.

Now I am waiting for a straight answer from you.

What knowledge/ experience are you (or anyone here) basing your opinions on. Not just with my company, but with any builder?

Let's have it.
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Old 09-18-08, 06:13 PM
  #95  
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Sacha,

Ever hear the story of the tar baby?

Do you really need to know what he bases his opinion on? Building a bike or giving us some stories about framebuilding would be a more productive use of your time.
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Old 09-18-08, 06:19 PM
  #96  
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My last 2 cents (maybe lol). Find me one person who has bought a Richard Sachs, Pegoretti, Vanilla etc. who is not 100% happy their purchase. I have yet to hear them state their complaints. It's the true bottom line.
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Old 09-18-08, 06:25 PM
  #97  
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Not for nothing but dutret has proven, in other cases, that he knows more about bikes than most on BF. Just saying.
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Old 09-18-08, 07:28 PM
  #98  
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Showed the wife their web site, explained the bike I wanted. She saw the wait time and said..."that's good, you'll have plenty of time to save money.." lol
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Old 09-18-08, 09:43 PM
  #99  
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Originally Posted by sacha white View Post
A redesign of the standard braking system making it stiffer and lighter. Custom drawn tubing specific for the project and extremely light/ strong steel drops sandwiched with raw metal faces to keep wear and tare from wheel changes to a minimum. a fit session with the designer/ builder of the bike, actual racing experience which comes in particularly handy when designing and refining race bike.

That's one aspect of the benefit.

Additionally, you get to work with a company that pays a living wage to it's employees, health insurance, profit sharing etc. Pays their paint shop a price that can afford it's employees the same standard of living.

In short, there are a lot of less expensive companies out there. That's fine. For me, when considering what I want my bikes to be and how to build my company, how cheaply I can do something is near the bottom of my list of priorities.
I don't know that the modifications or additions you've made to traditional designs do much, but I can respect paying a livable wage.
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Old 09-19-08, 02:23 AM
  #100  
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Your bikes are cute Sacha. You've seemed to have carved out a little niche for yourself. I just hope you're around in 5 years.
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