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Intermittant Fasting 🍴

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Old 04-24-18, 06:58 PM
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Originally Posted by Carbonfiberboy View Post
No fair! I remember this table but not the PDF URL. I only get the abstract from your link, no table, etc. It's a study of sleep low, train low (low carb availability) vs. train high. Without the PDF we don't know what their definition of "economy" is. So of course the SL group's fat oxidation improved, but with a concomitant decrease in CHO oxidation. There's always a trade-off. Also no TT results for the two groups, which is what I would call the determinant result as far as desirability of SL etc. goes. See my tag line.

Many of us do a variation on the SL thing by simply training in the morning before breakfast, or going on training rides for several hours without eating, etc., which all have a similar effect on fat burning. But then we also do intervals to keep the carb burning apparatus in good condition.

Chapple started this line of thinking back in 2006 with his Base Building for Cyclists. AFAIK the method by which one periodizes nutrition to achieve this increase in fat burning makes no difference.

I ran across an interesting article on pros doing what one might call permanent nutritional periodization:
https://www.ridemedia.com.au/feature...weight-debate/
Pm me if you(or anyone) wants the pdf. I have academic access to it and others
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Old 04-24-18, 06:59 PM
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Originally Posted by mcours2006 View Post
I am assuming that '16/8' refers to a 16-hour fast, which I do regularly, sort of, but I had no idea there was a name for it. For me it was just my routine. I'd finish by eating by 6PM and sometimes get up and do workouts in the morning, usually riding or running, and then break fast at 8 or 9 AM the next day. Okay, not quite 16 but close.

Been doing it for years. I weight train, run, and ride, and eat clean. I wouldn't attribute any of my weight loss or healthfulness to IF. It's more of the clean eating and exercise.

I wouldn't go 24 hours without eating. I enjoy my breakfast too much.

Are you sure you doing intermittent fasting ??... I thought real IF involves not eating any breakfast....When I did mine my last meal was at around 9:30 PM and I didn't start eating until about 12 noon the next day sometimes even as late as 2:30 PM.
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Old 04-24-18, 07:08 PM
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Originally Posted by wolfchild View Post
Are you sure you doing intermittent fasting ??... I thought real IF involves not eating any breakfast....When I did mine my last meal was at around 9:30 PM and I didn't start eating until about 12 noon the next day sometimes even as late as 2:30 PM.
Does it matter if it's breakfast you're skipping? Seriously asking, cause I eat my last meal at around 6pm until 8 or 9 am the next day. The fasting period is the same, and I will have trained prior to the first meal of the day. Sometimes that training is a 90 minute run, sometimes it's just a 60 ride to work, and occasionally it's a three+ hour hard ride.
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Old 04-24-18, 07:31 PM
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Originally Posted by mcours2006 View Post
Does it matter if it's breakfast you're skipping? Seriously asking, cause I eat my last meal at around 6pm until 8 or 9 am the next day. The fasting period is the same, and I will have trained prior to the first meal of the day. Sometimes that training is a 90 minute run, sometimes it's just a 60 ride to work, and occasionally it's a three+ hour hard ride.

When I experimented with IF I did it differently... Basically the first 8 hours of fasting was accomplished during sleep after the last evening meal. Then wake up in the morning and be physically active for the next 8 hours while fasting and then start eating. The fasting during sleep was an easy part, the challenge was after waking up and going without food for the next 8 hours while being physically active.
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Old 04-24-18, 07:44 PM
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Originally Posted by redlude97 View Post
Pm me if you(or anyone) wants the pdf. I have academic access to it and others
Thanks. One can get the PDF by googling the study title + "PDF". So I did.

Yes, TT times and supramaximal performance increased for the SL group. But that's the rationale behind Chapple's book, the Posties going out for 6 hour rides with only water in their bottles, and those of us who sometimes ride before breakfast. I've also seen similar performance increases described by those who've experimented with simply riding a lot while staying below VT1 (first ventilation threshold), which is the point at which carbohydrate oxidation begins. In fact, that's the theory behind "polarized training:"
Weight maintenance advice, please.

Also behind doing twice-a-days: Evidence for Doubling, training in glycogen depleted state ? Science of Running

So there are many ways to improve one's results by various training and dietary interventions, with AFAIK no clear indication that one intervention is better than another. This field is so complicated that I wouldn't expect RCTs to sort it out. Instead, see who wins and what they did to do it. Some things we know: Vegan doesn't work. Thinner is better. Carbs and protein are good. We need some fat.

I'd say that along with one's intervention, one should describe one's athletic results, like squat/bodyweight improvements, watts/kg improvements, pass climb time improvements, etc.
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Old 04-24-18, 08:05 PM
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I don't ride on intermittent fasting days, or I eat a couple of hours before I do ride. I know from years of experience I'll bonk hard if I try to ride without eating. If I've gone 12-20 hours without eating and still want to ride or exercise, I'll have my usual pre-ride meal: oatmeal, banana and yogurt, with coffee. Works reliably for me.

But I doubt I have enough stored fat to test any theory on diet and exercise. It might work for folks with enough stored fat, no history of blood sugar problems, and other metabolic variables that make it work for them. Some anecdotes claim women are better suited to that sort of approach. I just know it doesn't work for me.

I do have a few pounds of fat around the middle and I'm so close to being optimally lean that I'm tempted to give it a try at paring down. Just for the challenge, no particular goal. But I'd need a much more methodical approach, and I'd need to decide whether I'm willing to sacrifice my few vices: a few beers a week; creamer in coffee, muffins with breakfast a few times a month (less than I used to eat), an occasional cookie or bit of chocolate hours away from any workout where those sugars and carbs won't be burned up.

So for now I'm depending on 2-3 hard rides a week at or near maximum sustainable effort, including one a week with HIIT. Seems to be working, which kinda reduces my motivation to sacrifice any more than I already have. I'd need to be persuaded that losing 2-5 lbs of fat would result in a significant improvement in my bike riding power and speed. But it won't. My primary obstacles are unrelated to weight -- mostly respiratory and a couple other pesky issues. Losing a couple or few pounds won't matter.
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Old 04-24-18, 09:08 PM
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Originally Posted by canklecat View Post
I don't ride on intermittent fasting days, or I eat a couple of hours before I do ride. I know from years of experience I'll bonk hard if I try to ride without eating. If I've gone 12-20 hours without eating and still want to ride or exercise, I'll have my usual pre-ride meal: oatmeal, banana and yogurt, with coffee. Works reliably for me.
Although the logic behind doing just that would seem beneficial (what better time to burn fat), in reality, it does more harm than good.

But I doubt I have enough stored fat to test any theory on diet and exercise. It might work for folks with enough stored fat, no history of blood sugar problems, and other metabolic variables that make it work for them.
You have enough. It would be a rare American (an anorexic) that could realistically make that claim.
Some anecdotes claim women are better suited to that sort of approach. I just know it doesn't work for me.
Because women naturally have a higher fat percentage?

I do have a few pounds of fat around the middle and I'm so close to being optimally lean that I'm tempted to give it a try at paring down. Just for the challenge, no particular goal.
My feelings exactly. Hence my present path.
But I'd need a much more methodical approach, and I'd need to decide whether I'm willing to sacrifice my few vices: a few beers a week; creamer in coffee, muffins with breakfast a few times a month (less than I used to eat), an occasional cookie or bit of chocolate hours away from any workout where those sugars and carbs won't be burned up.
Look at it this way. Its all for your benefit, and you're not giving them up for a period, not the rest of your life.

So for now I'm depending on 2-3 hard rides a week at or near maximum sustainable effort, including one a week with HIIT. Seems to be working, which kinda reduces my motivation to sacrifice any more than I already have.
Well there is the old phrase that goes, "if it ain't broken..." On the other hand, sometime we need to get out of our comfort zone and try fresh and challenging. Since I've been on this phase of IF fasting, I've learned more new things about my body (and mind) and how it responds to different stimuli than I have in the previous decades. A fascination sensation, worthy of database all by itself.
I'd need to be persuaded that losing 2-5 lbs of fat would result in a significant improvement in my bike riding power and speed. But it won't.
What I previously thought. I was wrong.
My primary obstacles are unrelated to weight -- mostly respiratory and a couple other pesky issues. Losing a couple or few pounds won't matter.
On the contrary, weight plays a pivotal role in all forms of athletic activity as well as serve as indicator or overall fitness and health. It is likely the single more prominent obstacle most of us have to face towards improving our fitness and health. In fact, most complaints of ailments related to mobility are all exacerbated due to excess body weight than anything else. In my experience, everyone that has complained about mobility issues (save traumatic injury) knees, hip, back, etc. have been overweight.
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Old 04-24-18, 09:49 PM
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I don't dismiss your counter points in theory. But I've done this sort of thing for a long time, especially when I was younger, so I know my physical capabilities and disabilities. In my youth I was an amateur boxer (we were very disciplined about weight, diet, etc. -- that was an era when you rarely saw an overweight boxer with even a hint of belly pudge), avid cyclist including riding long distances, and a Navy Corpsman assigned to the Marines and did field training and PT alongside them, same routines and efforts. I was very competitive then and usually outdid my Marine colleagues in physical fitness.

One problem I repeatedly encountered when trying to stray beyond my familiar eating habits was severe headaches with dizziness, nausea and vomiting. Runs in the family, unfortunately -- migraines, cluster headaches, trigeminal neuralgia. I tried the ketosis diet in my early twenties trying to improve my cycling performance for crits and long distance rides, and to keep my weight down from light-middleweight to welterweight. Absolute failure. The headaches weren't worth the imperceptible gains.

My optimal weight then was light-middleweight around 154 lbs. I weigh 158 now. I'm very close to my optimal weight, although it's a bit misleading. I have less upper body muscle mass, but bigger and stronger legs. I'd guesstimate I have 5 lbs of excess fat, all around the middle, about 1/4 in front, 1/2 in back over the kidneys, the rest more evenly distributed.

The challenges now to paring down are respiratory (asthma, and I'm a former smoker but did some permanent damage before quitting 20 years ago), and chronic thyroid disease -- Hashimoto's, a pesky but non-fatal auto-immune disorder. We're trying different meds but so far nothing is working so I've discontinued the thyroid meds, pretty much everything to get back to a baseline to re-evaluate the condition. The cortisol response to low blood sugar can backfire in pretty serious ways, so it's not worth the risk to pare down a few pounds around my middle.

Yup, I can cut out the excess carbs like the muffins I ate today. I didn't ride or exercise so that's just junk carbs. And I may give that a try just to see what happens.

But I'm not changing my pre-exercise diet. I know what works and doesn't work for me.

I am modifying my mid-ride/workout snacks and trying gels for awhile. Usually I carry energy/protein bars, but there's a theory that whey protein (I can't handle vegan protein, too many digestion problems, so it has to be whey or meat) should be consumed within a fairly narrow window of metabolic opportunity, supposedly immediately after a hard workout. It's possible consuming too much protein during a ride might be somewhat detrimental, diverting metabolic energy toward digestion. So I'm going to try gels for a couple of weeks and see how it goes.

But to be realistic, the respiratory problems will always be the main limitation, far more so than the weight. I've been hospitalized a few times with pneumonia and symptoms of congestive heart failure, the last time around 12 years ago when I weighed closer to 200 lbs. Party a genetic curse, but also my fault for smoking when I was younger and gaining so much weight after mobility impairments from a car wreck in 2001.

No problems with pneumonia in the past 10 years since I gradually began taking off the weight. Still some pesky problems with arrhythmia and a murmur described as "minor" by doctors, although one daughter needed surgery to correct her arrhythmia.

But the persistent asthma is annoying. Could hardly breathe today due to congestion, constricted airway, etc. Alburterol doesn't work well for me. Fluticasone nasal inhalers work okay, but there's the glucocorticoid/cortisol response thing as a potential side effect, so it's always a balancing act between breathing and everything else. Generic ephedrine/guaifenesin tablets work but have their own side effects. Everything is a compromise.
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Old 04-24-18, 10:03 PM
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Originally Posted by canklecat View Post
I don't ride on intermittent fasting days, or I eat a couple of hours before I do ride. I know from years of experience I'll bonk hard if I try to ride without eating. If I've gone 12-20 hours without eating and still want to ride or exercise, I'll have my usual pre-ride meal: oatmeal, banana and yogurt, with coffee. Works reliably for me.

But I doubt I have enough stored fat to test any theory on diet and exercise. It might work for folks with enough stored fat, no history of blood sugar problems, and other metabolic variables that make it work for them. Some anecdotes claim women are better suited to that sort of approach. I just know it doesn't work for me.

I do have a few pounds of fat around the middle and I'm so close to being optimally lean that I'm tempted to give it a try at paring down. Just for the challenge, no particular goal. But I'd need a much more methodical approach, and I'd need to decide whether I'm willing to sacrifice my few vices: a few beers a week; creamer in coffee, muffins with breakfast a few times a month (less than I used to eat), an occasional cookie or bit of chocolate hours away from any workout where those sugars and carbs won't be burned up.

So for now I'm depending on 2-3 hard rides a week at or near maximum sustainable effort, including one a week with HIIT. Seems to be working, which kinda reduces my motivation to sacrifice any more than I already have. I'd need to be persuaded that losing 2-5 lbs of fat would result in a significant improvement in my bike riding power and speed. But it won't. My primary obstacles are unrelated to weight -- mostly respiratory and a couple other pesky issues. Losing a couple or few pounds won't matter.
If you feel that you'll bonk if you ride without eating, it's because you don't try, but it's really very important for you to do so. Fat burning is a critical metabolic pathway to develop. That's kinda what this thread's about IMO. Humans have evolved to be really good at exercising without eating - just burning fat. You gotta get up in the morning and go out and hunt down something, then carry at least some of it back to your group. Or hunt for a few days without getting anything. That's all built in. But civilization blunts that ability.

So what you do is to go out without eating, but bring a waterbottle full of sports drink. Ride at a moderate pace. After about 1/2 hour, you might feel a bit hungry, even a bit woozy. Ignore it and keep riding. Maybe 10 minutes later, you'll start to feel better. Keep riding. Some time around maybe an hour, you'll start to feel weak. That's not bonking, it's just blood sugar dropping out because you're so bad at recruiting fatty acids from your plentiful deposits of same. So then drink a few swallows of the sports drink. You'll feel better. Keep riding. A while later you'll get really hungry. Time to suck on the bottle in earnest and head for home. You still won't bonk, but you'll get uncomfortable. Keep working at this and you'll gradually get better at it. In maybe a year, you'll be able to easily ride 2 hours or more on an empty stomach.

Anyway, this is the process one goes through to stimulate fat burning during exercise. Has to be done with exercise. Just sitting around and not eating isn't the same thing.

This is also how those with tendency for hypoglycemia, like I have, make that go mostly away and fixes our blood sugar issue.

Read through the links that I and redlude put up in our comments. Forcing your body to burn fat during exercise is definitely a way to get faster. So far, and AFAIK, fasting has nothing to do with it.

Even the slimmest marathoner has enough bodyfat to fuel at least 3 consecutive marathons.
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Old 04-24-18, 10:14 PM
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Originally Posted by canklecat View Post
<snip>

But the persistent asthma is annoying. Could hardly breathe today due to congestion, constricted airway, etc. Alburterol doesn't work well for me. Fluticasone nasal inhalers work okay, but there's the glucocorticoid/cortisol response thing as a potential side effect, so it's always a balancing act between breathing and everything else. Generic ephedrine/guaifenesin tablets work but have their own side effects. Everything is a compromise.
Have you tried an Advair Diskus? It's a combo of fluticasone and salmeterol. My wife and I have been using these medications every day for maybe 30 years with no detectable side effects of any sort. They come in various dosages. Talk to your pulmonoligist - you have one, right?
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Old 04-24-18, 10:15 PM
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Originally Posted by Carbonfiberboy View Post
If you feel that you'll bonk if you ride without eating, it's because you don't try...
Read a little farther down, the post just above your reply here, for my interminable reply with more background details.

Yup, I agree, in theory. But I know what works for me. Not new to the game of optimizing fitness and testing the ragged edge of physical performance. It's just a different challenge now than it was when I was younger, with more interconnected complications.
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Old 04-24-18, 10:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Carbonfiberboy View Post
Have you tried an Advair Diskus? It's a combo of fluticasone and salmeterol. My wife and I have been using these medications every day for maybe 30 years with no detectable side effects of any sort. They come in various dosages. Talk to your pulmonoligist - you have one, right?
Yup, tried those discs. Might still have one around somewhere. I need to try it with a different nebulizer. The one I had years ago was useless. All the powder ended up on my tongue and throat. Never made it down the airway or did any good.

No idea whether the VA will spring for a specialist. With no service connected disability I'm lucky to have access to any medical coverage at all. For years I wouldn't even apply to the VA until they got their act together and provided better care for wartime vets with disabilities. They seem to be improving on that.
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Old 04-24-18, 10:23 PM
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Originally Posted by canklecat View Post
<snip> Usually I carry energy/protein bars, but there's a theory that whey protein (I can't handle vegan protein, too many digestion problems, so it has to be whey or meat) should be consumed within a fairly narrow window of metabolic opportunity, supposedly immediately after a hard workout. It's possible consuming too much protein during a ride might be somewhat detrimental, diverting metabolic energy toward digestion. So I'm going to try gels for a couple of weeks and see how it goes.<snip>
There's ~4 hour window for protein consumption. It's carbs that have the short windows after exercise. But I usually have them together after exercise.

True about the in-ride protein. About 15% is maybe optimal for 300k+ rides, but for shorter, plain carbs works best for the reason you give.
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Old 04-24-18, 10:27 PM
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Originally Posted by canklecat View Post
Yup, tried those discs. Might still have one around somewhere. I need to try it with a different nebulizer. The one I had years ago was useless. All the powder ended up on my tongue and throat. Never made it down the airway or did any good.

No idea whether the VA will spring for a specialist. With no service connected disability I'm lucky to have access to any medical coverage at all. For years I wouldn't even apply to the VA until they got their act together and provided better care for wartime vets with disabilities. They seem to be improving on that.
You won't know until you ask. No nebulizer involved. You put the diskus in your mouth, start sucking wind and pop the lever. Works great. We used the ACA insurance until we got Medicare.

Advair is crazy expensive. We buy it from Canada for about 1/3 what our insurance requires for a co-pay.
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Old 04-24-18, 11:38 PM
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I had those discs and may still have one or two left over. For some reason I thought there was an optional inhalation assist device comparable to a bong for them to increase inhalation. The stuff mostly stuck to my tongue.

One reason I'm reluctant to use Advair again, or even to continue using other albuterol inhalers, is the side effects. My mom would have been a perfect guinea pig for labs to test for side effects. If there was a remote possibility of a side effect, she'd get it. With albuterol and Advair she nailed almost every potential side effect: fungal infection, cold sores, shingles, worsening osteoporosis, pretty much all of it. Her geriatric doctor finally discontinued those meds since the side effects were a far greater risk than the minor occasionally bouts with asthma. My asthma is much worse but I'm still wary of the side effects, especially since albuterol doesn't really work for me anyway.

My asthma is annoying but not life threatening. I'm inclined to just put up with the reduced respiratory capacity. I don't race. I'd like to keep up better with the local fast club rides, but I haven't really exhausted the potential for improving my fitness. I've gradually gotten a little faster and stronger since last summer, so for now I'll just keep plugging away at training and basic diet and fitness.
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Old 04-25-18, 04:31 AM
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Originally Posted by Carbonfiberboy View Post

So what you do is to go out without eating, but bring a waterbottle full of sports drink. Ride at a moderate pace.


Ok but if a person brings a sports drink with them on their "fasted ride" and uses it during their ride, then it's not a fasted ride anymore because sports drinks contain sugar and calories ???...I regularly commute to work early in the morning' it's about a 50 minute ride which I do without ingesting any calories. I only have some water and a cup of coffee before the ride. Then after I am done my ride I drink my 1100 calorie smoothie as my breakfast.
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Old 04-25-18, 08:35 AM
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Surprised you're not on board, @wolfchild. Didn't our paleo forebears fast intermittently as a part of normal life?
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Old 04-25-18, 09:54 AM
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Originally Posted by wolfchild View Post
Ok but if a person brings a sports drink with them on their "fasted ride" and uses it during their ride, then it's not a fasted ride anymore because sports drinks contain sugar and calories ???...I regularly commute to work early in the morning' it's about a 50 minute ride which I do without ingesting any calories. I only have some water and a cup of coffee before the ride. Then after I am done my ride I drink my 1100 calorie smoothie as my breakfast.
The idea is to make fasted rides accessible to those who don't have the capability to ride very far while fasted. I always bring a bottle of sports drink on 2-3 hour rides, whether fasted or not, but almost never use it in either case. It's for if something goes wrong with my metabolism. The idea is to get used to forcing your body to burn fat, but in a non-aggressive, kind way with a safe backstop.

When I started riding again at 50, I could only ride 1/2 hour before I needed to eat - on a non-fasted ride. Everyone has to start somewhere.
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Old 04-25-18, 10:12 AM
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Originally Posted by canklecat View Post
I had those discs and may still have one or two left over. For some reason I thought there was an optional inhalation assist device comparable to a bong for them to increase inhalation. The stuff mostly stuck to my tongue.

One reason I'm reluctant to use Advair again, or even to continue using other albuterol inhalers, is the side effects. My mom would have been a perfect guinea pig for labs to test for side effects. If there was a remote possibility of a side effect, she'd get it. With albuterol and Advair she nailed almost every potential side effect: fungal infection, cold sores, shingles, worsening osteoporosis, pretty much all of it. Her geriatric doctor finally discontinued those meds since the side effects were a far greater risk than the minor occasionally bouts with asthma. My asthma is much worse but I'm still wary of the side effects, especially since albuterol doesn't really work for me anyway.

My asthma is annoying but not life threatening. I'm inclined to just put up with the reduced respiratory capacity. I don't race. I'd like to keep up better with the local fast club rides, but I haven't really exhausted the potential for improving my fitness. I've gradually gotten a little faster and stronger since last summer, so for now I'll just keep plugging away at training and basic diet and fitness.
Not a good idea. Chronic asthma has an end state - COPD. You don't want that. Get it fixed. You are not your mother. You are not your doctor. Get serious about this, now. This is a warning. My wife almost died from asthma. It happens. And frankly, except for the fungal infection I doubt that Advair had anything to do with her other ailments. Cold sores are caused by a virus. Shingles is caused by a virus. Osteoporosis is caused by lack of weight bearing exercise, which could be caused by asthma or COPD.

Some people do get thrush from spray administration of fluticasone, but never heard of people getting it from Advair. In any case, you're supposed to rinse your mouth out after using Advair or any inhaler, which usually prevents thrush.

Osteoporosis Not More Likely With an Inhaled Corticosteroid in COPD
https://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/722139

Advair diskus 250/50 and Osteoporosis - from FDA reports
https://www.ehealthme.com/ds/advair-.../osteoporosis/
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Old 04-25-18, 01:22 PM
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I've been on intermittent fasts daily for months. I love it. 18/6
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Old 04-25-18, 03:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Carbonfiberboy View Post
Thanks. One can get the PDF by googling the study title + "PDF". So I did.

Yes, TT times and supramaximal performance increased for the SL group. But that's the rationale behind Chapple's book, the Posties going out for 6 hour rides with only water in their bottles, and those of us who sometimes ride before breakfast. I've also seen similar performance increases described by those who've experimented with simply riding a lot while staying below VT1 (first ventilation threshold), which is the point at which carbohydrate oxidation begins. In fact, that's the theory behind "polarized training:"
Weight maintenance advice, please.


Also behind doing twice-a-days: Evidence for Doubling, training in glycogen depleted state ? Science of Running

So there are many ways to improve one's results by various training and dietary interventions, with AFAIK no clear indication that one intervention is better than another. This field is so complicated that I wouldn't expect RCTs to sort it out. Instead, see who wins and what they did to do it. Some things we know: Vegan doesn't work. Thinner is better. Carbs and protein are good. We need some fat.

I'd say that along with one's intervention, one should describe one's athletic results, like squat/bodyweight improvements, watts/kg improvements, pass climb time improvements, etc.
Doing work in a glycogen/blood glucose depleted state is beneficial to submaximal and threshold types of efforts, and being less food dependant on subsequent rides at all intensities. Without getting into the metabolic details which I don't fully understand, the longer time you can spend in this state the more fat adaption that will occur. I think we are both in agreement on that.

Now sure, there are many ways to skin a cat. You've outlined quite a few, but they all essentially revolve around achieving this glycogen depleted state and being able to do work beyond this point. The major changes when glycogen depleted are that you have to rely on fatty acid oxidation which varies with intensity to some extent, and on gluconeogensis to supply glucose to the brain. Ignore the pre/post difference in FA oxidation but generally these are the ranges


So really the question is in which way do you want to achieve this glycogen depleted state? Everyone has their preferences but I'll outline the benefits of hacking the body's metabolism during an IF to kickstart this process.

Here is what happens as a function of time in terms of modulating blood glucose

So all sugar from food is gone by 4 hours, converted to blood sugar, restored liver/muscle glycogen, and converted to fat. Then begins the process of buffering blood sugar that spikes within and hour after a meal and drops slowly over the course of a few hours reach a SS of ~4mM. This is supplied almost exclusively by liver glycogen over the next 6-8 hours and as you approach the 8-12 hour mark from the last meal, when fatty acid oxidation and gluconeogenesis of the freed glycerol ramps up.


Now lets do some basic math, at sub threshold intensities you burn ~0.4g/min fat = ~300 cals/hour. At say 150W you are burning ~600 calories/hour. So about half from fat and half from carbs/glycogen/blood sugar. The muscles store ~1500-2000 calories in glycogen ~half of which are useable by the legs so 750-1000 calories, and ~4-500 calories stored in a full liver, and ~100 calories in blood sugar at a given time. So about 1250-1600 calories stored to provide CHO energy. So you are burning 600 cals/hour-300 cals/hour(Fat)=300 cals/hour from glycogen. Of course you can't actually run down your stores completely before your body starts to shut down those mechanisms so from experience this requires 2-3 hours before you start to feel this pre-bonk state of low blood sugar and fat reliance. So if you go out for a ride after breakfast this is what you are up against before you really start reaching glycogen depletion and increase fatty acid oxidation and adaptions that you are after.

So what about if you start your ride after an IF? Blood sugar and liver glycogen stores are already low, lets optimistically say half, 6-800 calories stored or less. Now you can reach the glycogen depleted state in say as little as 30mins-1 hour.

Now Dr. Hawley's sleep low strategy is two fold. The afternoon training in a full glycogen state allows you to do HIIT that is necessary for performance gains needed in cycling that the previous train low strategy failed at and why even though fat adaption occurred performance didn't increase. These workouts also worked to deplete glycogen stores, and by replenishing only with protein and fat and no carbs, the body starts in this IF state in less time, and has to rely fatty acid oxidation to supply energy further fat adaption at rest and on gluconeogenesis to replenish glycogen stores to some extent and provide blood sugar for the brain. Then you go out for a ride in the morning after having fat adapted during sleep, and then riding without having to do much glycogen depleting at all to start your training in this state and further push fat adaption.

While its taking awhile for the science to catch up and publish the results and mechanisms of this study, many athletes were already employing nutritional periodization in their lives out of convenience, especially triathletes and excelling without even knowing it. It is described in more detail the rational in this podcast Fast Talk podcast, ep. 23: How periodization works... for your nutrition | VeloNews.com

Sorry for the long post, the reasoning makes sense to me and seems like an easy, time efficient strategy to employ for those of us who don't have 4-6 hours to go on rides all the time. Whether you use just a normal IF to boost your training or incorporate a sleep low strategy into it. Fat adaption helps, find a way that you can incorporate it into your workouts. I can do it 5 days a week with my 1+hour commute on just coffee, and I've worked up to the point of doing those commutes at sweet spot normalized power. Works for me and I lost ~20lbs in the process last summer by the fall cyclocross season while still increasing fitness.
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Old 04-25-18, 03:40 PM
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Originally Posted by ThermionicScott View Post
Surprised you're not on board, @wolfchild. Didn't our paleo forebears fast intermittently as a part of normal life?


Like I said before, I used to do it regularly... I could still do it if I wanted to, but I just don't want to. It really doesn't fit with my daily schedule, lifestyle and goals right now. I've made many changes in my nutrition over the years...Who knows, maybe some day I'll try doing it again...Sometimes I will follow a certain style of eating for months or years and then change to something else for a while and then go back to what I doing previously.
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Old 04-25-18, 03:42 PM
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Originally Posted by Carbonfiberboy View Post
The idea is to make fasted rides accessible to those who don't have the capability to ride very far while fasted. I always bring a bottle of sports drink on 2-3 hour rides, whether fasted or not, but almost never use it in either case. It's for if something goes wrong with my metabolism. The idea is to get used to forcing your body to burn fat, but in a non-aggressive, kind way with a safe backstop.

When I started riding again at 50, I could only ride 1/2 hour before I needed to eat - on a non-fasted ride. Everyone has to start somewhere.

That makes perfect sense...and I agree that everybody has to start somewhere.
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Old 04-25-18, 04:30 PM
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Originally Posted by canklecat View Post
Read a little farther down, the post just above your reply here, for my interminable reply with more background details.

Yup, I agree, in theory. But I know what works for me. Not new to the game of optimizing fitness and testing the ragged edge of physical performance. It's just a different challenge now than it was when I was younger, with more interconnected complications.
Only you know what's right for you, but suffice it to say that I too believe that I had reached the limit to my knowledge to how my body function under stress before I implemented these recent techniques. After going through some of the most dramatic changes of my life, I'm not only not ashamed but am happy to admit, I was wrong.
Originally Posted by Carbonfiberboy View Post
There's ~4 hour window for protein consumption. It's carbs that have the short windows after exercise. But I usually have them together after exercise.

True about the in-ride protein. About 15% is maybe optimal for 300k+ rides, but for shorter, plain carbs works best for the reason you give.
There has been more recent studies regarding the anabolic window and how we need to interpret it. The interpretation basically states that the anabolic window is no longer considered critical.
Originally Posted by wolfchild View Post
Ok but if a person brings a sports drink with them on their "fasted ride" and uses it during their ride, then it's not a fasted ride anymore because sports drinks contain sugar and calories ???...
Absolutely correct.
I regularly commute to work early in the morning' it's about a 50 minute ride which I do without ingesting any calories. I only have some water and a cup of coffee before the ride. Then after I am done my ride I drink my 1100 calorie smoothie as my breakfast.
Wow! That's a lot of calories.

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Old 04-25-18, 04:47 PM
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Interesting discussion. I am planning to change some of my diet and riding habits to see if it pares down the little bit of belly fat I have remaining.

In fact I planned to start today but it's been drizzling -- I don't mind the rain or steady wind but it's been tricky swirling wind around 5-8 mph with erratic gusts up to 30 mph. Not safe for rain slick roads. Makes me wonder whether I should get a trainer to stay more or less on schedule. Usually I prefer to ride outdoors, but I might use a trainer if I had one. Kinda kicking myself for missing a deal on a like-new Cycleops a few months ago for $50 or less.

Reading some theories about metabolizing whey protein, I should stop eating whey protein energy bars during rides and wait until afterward during recovery to drink my whey protein shakes -- I usually mix the powder with cold coffee leftover from the morning. So I can save the whey stuff for after hard rides, or only for days when I also do full body strengthening workouts.

I got in the habit of using protein supplements back in January when I used an app to record everything and realized I was both calorie and protein deficient. But that was when I had a weeks-long bout with flu and was often too tired to cook or eat properly. I'm over that now and probably don't really need the protein supplement.

So for now I'll stick with gels during rides. Kroger sells the Clif mocha gels pretty cheaply, so I can try those for a couple of weeks and see how it goes. I usually don't eat anything during my 20-40 mile rides anyway, but occasionally when that includes a fast club ride I'll feel a bit faded after the club ride when I still have 10-15 miles to ride home.

I can definitely cut back on the junk carbs -- cookies, muffins, etc. I just need to steer clear of the day-old discount bin at the store, especially when I'm hungry while shopping! My usual pre-ride meal of oatmeal, banana and yogurt has been plenty.
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