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Old 05-02-18, 06:48 PM
  #76  
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Originally Posted by fantom1 View Post
Then your "experience" of life has been lived in some sort of pyschotic state, far removed from most other people's reality.

This is literally one of the most ridiculous things I've read on this forum.
The next time you start off with ridiculous I won't bother responding. I'll just let you wallow in your ignorance. If you don't understand something ask for clarification. Also, not every diet or training method works well or is feasible for everyone, and every goal. One more thing, save the hyperbole for the foo forum. Its wasted here.

Anyhow, you're whole premise about increasing performance through fasting is wrong. There is no data that supports it, and frankly no top athletes have ever done it because it doesn't work. You might lose weight, but that doesn't mean much. Ride more and eat smarter if you want to lose fat weight. Everything you've written sounds straight from the vegan and/or cross fit evangelist handbook. Not to mention focusing on BF% is a very poor idea, and whatever method you are using to estimate it is probably wrong.
First, its not my premise its a compilation of researched data. And second, I don't advocate cycling (nor any form of exercise) to lose weight. I never have.
Originally Posted by jon c. View Post
I've been doing that for years. Wouldn't consider 16 hours without eating to be fasting as that's fairly common for me. I never intended this pattern and it isn't intended for training or weight loss, it just evolved over time. I was never one to eat much first thing in the morning and over time I lost interest in lunch. Some days I'll have a scone or a doughnut if I encounter such snacks, other days I'll eat nothing until 8 pm or so.
At this point I don't particularly like it; and I can't say I would advocate it. However, the body does get used to any system, so its important to stay ahead of that to continue to make progress. OMAD is just one of many methods to keep it off balance.
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Old 05-03-18, 02:17 AM
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I tried my first deliberate fasted ride Wednesday. 12-14 hours after previous meal. Cup of coffee, nothing else. Usually I'd expect to bonk but it went fine.

Rode 30 miles below my threshold, felt comfortable but slow. Actually averaged 15.4 mph, only a little slower than my usual 16-17 mph on that same route. And the weather was tougher than usual -- our first really warm day, nearly 90 and muggy, with 22 mph whipping wind. The wind helped with tailwind on two short steep downhills and one long gradual climb, but otherwise wasn't much of a factor since it was from the side and often shielded by terrain or trees.

I'm not sure it was completely within parameters for fasted. The coffee had about a tablespoon of whey protein powder, but it was cold, in the fridge and ready to go so I drank it. And my water bottles had powdered electrolytes -- I didn't realize until I read the labels they contain maltodextrin, although in a tiny amount and the makers claim 5 calories and 2 grams carbs. Probably not enough to matter.

I carried a couple of gels but didn't need them. It was a surprise to discover I didn't bonk. In the past that's been a problem, although unpredictable. I suspect it had to do with inadequate rest. Before Wednesday's ride I got plenty of sleep and waited until afternoon. I'd planned to ride that morning after fasting only 8 hours and skipping breakfast, but felt so achy I took some ibuprofen and waited (I always get aching joints before t-storm fronts move in as the barometric pressure drops). So I went longer without eating than I'd planned, but actually felt better and more rested.

I'll try this again, maybe once a week or so. I'm curious to see whether it'll pare down those last few pounds of fat around my midsection. Might as well give it a try now since this is the closest I've been to my optimal weight and fitness in 40 years.
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Old 05-03-18, 11:54 AM
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Originally Posted by KraneXL View Post
The next time you start off with ridiculous I won't bother responding. I'll just let you wallow in your ignorance.
1) Oooh no! You won't respond! Good riddance, your opinion is worthless. In fact, don't worry, I'll just ignore you. For someone who is completely wrong and bases their opinion off complete nonsense you sure are arrogant.

2)
Originally Posted by KraneXL View Post
One more thing, save the hyperbole for the foo forum. Its wasted here.
My statement was not hyperbole. This:
Originally Posted by KraneXL View Post
In my experience, everyone that has complained about mobility issues (save traumatic injury) knees, hip, back, etc. have been overweight.
is literally one of the most asinine, stupid, and ridiculous things I have read on the forum. I'm willing to bet you are neither a doctor, nor an orthopedic surgeon, and not even a physical therapist. Seriously, that's why I used the word, "literally," to highlight that I was not using hyperbole.

Anyhow, have fun in the Cat 5s.
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Old 05-03-18, 04:46 PM
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Originally Posted by KraneXL View Post
And second, I don't advocate cycling (nor any form of exercise) to lose weight. I never have.
That's just too bad...because exercise especially higher intensity anaerobic exercise burns a crap load of calories in a very short amount of time and is extremely effective for fat loss.
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Old 05-03-18, 08:48 PM
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Originally Posted by canklecat View Post
I tried my first deliberate fasted ride Wednesday. 12-14 hours after previous meal. Cup of coffee, nothing else. Usually I'd expect to bonk but it went fine.

Rode 30 miles below my threshold, felt comfortable but slow. Actually averaged 15.4 mph, only a little slower than my usual 16-17 mph on that same route. And the weather was tougher than usual -- our first really warm day, nearly 90 and muggy, with 22 mph whipping wind. The wind helped with tailwind on two short steep downhills and one long gradual climb, but otherwise wasn't much of a factor since it was from the side and often shielded by terrain or trees.

I'm not sure it was completely within parameters for fasted. The coffee had about a tablespoon of whey protein powder, but it was cold, in the fridge and ready to go so I drank it. And my water bottles had powdered electrolytes -- I didn't realize until I read the labels they contain maltodextrin, although in a tiny amount and the makers claim 5 calories and 2 grams carbs. Probably not enough to matter.

I carried a couple of gels but didn't need them. It was a surprise to discover I didn't bonk. In the past that's been a problem, although unpredictable. I suspect it had to do with inadequate rest. Before Wednesday's ride I got plenty of sleep and waited until afternoon. I'd planned to ride that morning after fasting only 8 hours and skipping breakfast, but felt so achy I took some ibuprofen and waited (I always get aching joints before t-storm fronts move in as the barometric pressure drops). So I went longer without eating than I'd planned, but actually felt better and more rested.

I'll try this again, maybe once a week or so. I'm curious to see whether it'll pare down those last few pounds of fat around my midsection. Might as well give it a try now since this is the closest I've been to my optimal weight and fitness in 40 years.
There are advocates that suggest that you can consume up to 50 cal. without any significant loss of benefits.

On the other hand, their are the extremest, that believe you would have been considered breaking your fast. Simply put, if it triggers an insulin response, then the fast is over.
Originally Posted by wolfchild View Post
That's just too bad...because exercise especially higher intensity anaerobic exercise burns a crap load of calories in a very short amount of time and is extremely effective for fat loss.
I am aware of this, and agree. However, that's not my issue. Rather, that people are far to quick to look to exercise to solve their weight issues instead of focusing on the true issue -- diet.

You can spend hours burning calories and gain it all back with a single meal. In some case, with a single serving. My point is, no matter how extreme your workout, you cannot out burn your palate.
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Old 05-05-18, 10:59 AM
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Maybe this thread has been noticed elsewhere? In any case, Chris Carmichael just put up a new blog post:
Why Intermittent Fasting Is Worthless for Endurance Athletes
https://trainright.com/why-intermitt...ance-athletes/

Basically he says that if that's the only way you can lose weight, and that's your top priority, fine. But don't mistake it for a performance enhancement technique. We've heard before about the performance enhancement technique Chris recommends: "Ride lots," which enhances fat oxidation just fine without sacrificing performance on that altar.
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Old 05-05-18, 07:34 PM
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Originally Posted by Carbonfiberboy View Post
Maybe this thread has been noticed elsewhere? In any case, Chris Carmichael just put up a new blog post:https://trainright.com/why-intermitt...ance-athletes/

Basically he says that if that's the only way you can lose weight, and that's your top priority, fine. But don't mistake it for a performance enhancement technique. We've heard before about the performance enhancement technique Chris recommends: "Ride lots," which enhances fat oxidation just fine without sacrificing performance on that altar.
Did you read the fine details? If that's truly what he said then he just still has a lot to learn. Although I suspect its more a matter of interpretation and/or context than anything else. In any event, IF is just a tool. How its used depends largely on your goal.
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Old 05-05-18, 08:50 PM
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Originally Posted by KraneXL View Post
Did you read the fine details? If that's truly what he said then he just still has a lot to learn. Although I suspect its more a matter of interpretation and/or context than anything else. In any event, IF is just a tool. How its used depends largely on your goal.
LOL. Didn't read it eh?
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Old 05-05-18, 11:42 PM
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Originally Posted by Carbonfiberboy View Post
Maybe this thread has been noticed elsewhere? In any case, Chris Carmichael just put up a new blog post:https://trainright.com/why-intermitt...ance-athletes/

Basically he says that if that's the only way you can lose weight, and that's your top priority, fine. But don't mistake it for a performance enhancement technique. We've heard before about the performance enhancement technique Chris recommends: "Ride lots," which enhances fat oxidation just fine without sacrificing performance on that altar.
Based on a) Chris being the first american TdF rider to DNF, or b) settling multiple lawsuits for his assisting in doping regimes, or c) his charging athletes $15K to fatten on carbs and burn them off with extreme hill climbing routines? Sorry, I could not resist the cheap shot - not a Carmichael fan, though I will easily admit he knows a million times what i do about training. I think he's retro-active & radioactive.

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Old 05-05-18, 11:49 PM
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Originally Posted by wolfchild View Post
That's nothing new. Humans knew that since ancient times.
What ancient diet are your referring to? Ancient man was a meat and fish eater, and whatever berries, foraging stuff was in the neighborhood. Are your suggesting ancient man had a pizza before heading out for the hunt? Spaghetti party for the hunter team?
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Old 05-06-18, 12:04 AM
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Originally Posted by fantom1 View Post

Anyhow, you're whole premise about increasing performance through fasting is wrong. There is no data that supports it, and frankly no top athletes have ever done it because it doesn't work. You might lose weight, but that doesn't mean much..
My sense is this is correct statement. I've only know a handful of real athletes in my life,...and I mean people who do two a days, constantly training and developing technique, striving for that competitive edge. My observation -- no way that could survive fasting, their performance would tank and tank fast and I suspect their health would suffer too. These people are calorie burning machines..

But, that's like 5% of the fitness crowd, maybe. I think it is a whole different story for the weekend warrior and even the avid fitness guy, especially the older athletes. On a macro level I think their performance would actually improve by getting control of blood sugars, weight, fat storage utilization via fasting. Yeah, no regional stars will be coming out of that crowd, but training and nutrition for Joe average is a whole different thing than T & N for Michael Phelps. . .
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Old 05-06-18, 04:10 AM
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Originally Posted by Carbonfiberboy View Post
LOL. Didn't read it eh?
Read it! Funny thing, it didn't change my original viewpoint. His article is true but only from a very narrow perspective. It also ignores all the many additional health benefits that go along with IF. In any event, I learned something new.
Originally Posted by FrenchFit View Post
My sense is this is correct statement. I've only know a handful of real athletes in my life,...and I mean people who do two a days, constantly training and developing technique, striving for that competitive edge. My observation -- no way that could survive fasting, their performance would tank and tank fast and I suspect their health would suffer too. These people are calorie burning machines.
All true, but again only from a narrow perspective. Keep in mind that the goal of a competitive athlete is to win. That mindset often negates the focus towards overall long-term good health. There's a reason you don't see quinquagenarians winning the Tour de France.

But, that's like 5% of the fitness crowd, maybe. I think it is a whole different story for the weekend warrior and even the avid fitness guy, especially the older athletes. On a macro level I think their performance would actually improve by getting control of blood sugars, weight, fat storage utilization via fasting. Yeah, no regional stars will be coming out of that crowd, but training and nutrition for Joe average is a whole different thing than T & N for Michael Phelps. . .
My point exactly.
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Old 05-06-18, 07:14 AM
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Originally Posted by FrenchFit View Post
What ancient diet are your referring to? Ancient man was a meat and fish eater, and whatever berries, foraging stuff was in the neighborhood. Are your suggesting ancient man had a pizza before heading out for the hunt? Spaghetti party for the hunter team?
If you notice, I never said that carbs were the main diet staples way back in time, at least not until about the time humans started to practise farming... All I said was that humans were aware and knew about the benefits of eating carbs. Nobody can deny the energy boost and performance enhancement from eating starchy or sugary carbs. Ancient humans would seek out and eat starchy and sweet foods whenever they had an opportunity...
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Old 05-06-18, 04:28 PM
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Originally Posted by wolfchild View Post
If you notice, I never said that carbs were the main diet staples way back in time, at least not until about the time humans started to practise farming... All I said was that humans were aware and knew about the benefits of eating carbs. Nobody can deny the energy boost and performance enhancement from eating starchy or sugary carbs. Ancient humans would seek out and eat starchy and sweet foods whenever they had an opportunity...
You speak as though you were there. I think the research is conflicted, and one line argues humans 500,000 years ago would seek out and eat starchy and sweet (potential glucose load) to avoid STARVATION when meat sources were unavailable. The other was they started cooking vegetables ti supplement themeat diet, which increased their carb load. But feasting before a hunt? I don't think anyone has proposed that as likely practice..
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Old 05-07-18, 02:29 AM
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This video popped up on my list today, and I thought it might be interesting to a few. In this interview, Joe and his guest talk about overweight people and the reason behind why some may have difficulty with losing weight. I personally don't believe that fat people can't lose weight, but what do you think?

They also discuss body fat vs body weight and the importance of hormones in regulating and balancing body weight. And of course, some brief connection with fasting and how it can affect all of this.

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Old 05-07-18, 03:39 PM
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Smart video. So, who's the guest interviewee?

Oh, I got it: Peter Attia. Outstanding credentials.

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Old 05-07-18, 06:49 PM
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Originally Posted by KraneXL View Post
This video popped up on my list today, and I thought it might be interesting to a few. In this interview, Joe and his guest talk about overweight people and the reason behind why some may have difficulty with losing weight. I personally don't believe that fat people can't lose weight, but what do you think?

They also discuss body fat vs body weight and the importance of hormones in regulating and balancing body weight. And of course, some brief connection with fasting and how it can affect all of this.

Joe Rogan - Why Obese People Can't Lose Weight
The main issue with the obese who can't lose weight isn't diet. That's a symptom. The problem is addiction to the hormones associated with eating large quantities of food in one sitting. We all know that we lose weight when we take in fewer calories than we use. While ad libitum dieters initially lose more weight on high fat/low carb diets, dieters participating in various equal-calorie diet studies lose exactly the same, no matter the percentage of macros in their diet. The presenter in the video has it backwards as far as inputs to fat cells goes. The process of storing eaten fat in our fat cells has a lower energy cost than the process of converting carbs to fat and storing that.

One of my female friends went around to her whole circle and confessed, Big Book style, that she knew she was addicted to food and that it was harming her life and had taken a vow to reform. She lost a little weight but now has gained back more than she lost. It's a tough fight, more like alcoholism than any thing else. And you don't have to be obese to have this problem. To some extent, it affects everyone. We all feel it. We all know someone who never buys cookies because they'll eat the whole package. The record fasting person referenced in the video essentially went to rehab. Took over a year. Wonder what he weighs now? The folks on the record loser TV shoe gained it all back after the show. Their problem had not been solved by diet.

I have a female friend who's been all over the place on the diet head-trip. Her solution was to view all food as fuel and nothing more. Cutting her emotional ties with food wound up getting her to Kona. It's a good plan: address the emotional and addictive problems first, then just eat a healthy diet, manipulating quantities to slowly change weight and/or body composition. The Mediterranean Diet keeps winning awards.

I had an overweight room mate in college who realized that fat people of college age aren't going to be dating. He thought about it and decided he'd rather reinforce his food addiction. Some choices are really hard to undo,.
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Old 05-07-18, 08:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Carbonfiberboy View Post
The presenter in the video has it backwards as far as inputs to fat cells goes.,.
LOL. Maybe you should do just a little bit of research on the credentials of the "presenter" who 'has it backwards'. Then you can tell us yours....
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Old 05-07-18, 09:41 PM
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Originally Posted by FrenchFit View Post
LOL. Maybe you should do just a little bit of research on the credentials of the "presenter" who 'has it backwards'. Then you can tell us yours....
LOL right back. I frankly don't give a flying F what the presenter's "credentials" are. I care about the scientific truth. Try doing some research on that. The interwebs are full of characters who, one way or another, get paid to spout nonsense, the author of Grain Belly being a prime example. In any case since you don't care to try to investigate this guy's claims, I've done it for you on several of these recent topics, years ago. So, in no particular order:

Effect of Eucaloric High- and Low-Sucrose Diets With Identical Macronutrient Profile on Insulin Resistance and Vascular Risk Diabetes
https://www.nytimes.com/2016/05/02/h...ight-loss.html
https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/602...5bb32389be.pdf
https://paleoleap.com/science-turnin...o-lipogenesis/

From that last link:
De novo Lipogenesis Doesn’t Cause Significant Weight or Fat Gain

In that second study above, the researchers used sophisticated metabolic techniques to measure exactly how much weight the women gained from fat vs. carbs. They found that the carb-overfed women stored about 282 grams of body fat per day, but only 4 grams of it came from de novo lipogenesis. De novo lipogenesis accounted for a measly 1.4% of their fat gain.
IOW, a while lot of french fries is about the worst thing you can eat.

People get on bandwagons about all sorts of stuff, the internet being a major contributor to this. Then it becomes for a while conventional wisdom, perhaps better known as bro science.
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Old 05-08-18, 08:36 AM
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Originally Posted by Carbonfiberboy View Post
bro science.
The wackado interwebz presenter has an undergraduate degree in mechanical science, M.D. from Stanford, 6 year surgical residency at John Hopkins, surgical oncology fellow at the NCI, and maintains offices in New York and California. Not your average "bro".

So don't keep us in suspense, your credentials are...?
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Old 05-08-18, 08:59 AM
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Originally Posted by FrenchFit View Post
The wackado interwebz presenter has an undergraduate degree in mechanical science, M.D. from Stanford, 6 year surgical residency at John Hopkins, surgical oncology fellow at the NCI, and maintains offices in New York and California. Not your average "bro".

So don't keep us in suspense, your credentials are...?
WTF is mechanical science? Don't you mean mechanical engineering? Attia is a hack. BTW my credentials are a PhD in Biochemical Engineering, and I'm currently a postdoc in an immunology lab studying CD8 t-cells in T1D. My background isn't strictly in human physiology/metabolism or exercise physiology but it is one of my areas of interest, and I like to think I have more than a passing knowledge of the major concepts. What are your credentials? How about you summarize Attia's findings in your own words so we can have a fruitful discussion?
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Old 05-08-18, 09:09 AM
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Originally Posted by FrenchFit View Post
The wackado interwebz presenter has an undergraduate degree in mechanical science, M.D. from Stanford, 6 year surgical residency at John Hopkins, surgical oncology fellow at the NCI, and maintains offices in New York and California. Not your average "bro".

So don't keep us in suspense, your credentials are...?
Sillyness. I don't need credentials. I only need quote scientific journals to inform you of the science done by researchers published in those journals. I personally have nothing to do with it. I'm only an information conduit. So since you're doing the ad hominem thing, please post links to the last 3 papers your guy has published on these subjects in peer-reviewed nutritional journals.

The Grain Belly guy is a decent example of this bro science. His book contains copious links to scientific studies. But if one were to look at those studies, one discovers that they prove the opposite of his book's thesis. The author counts on the laziness and ignorance of those who bought his book, a fair bet as it turns out.

One can educate one's self in many fields, simply by reading original research published in those fields. Of course one needs the education and vocabulary to make sense of what one reads, but one can get those things too, in the same way. There's a woman who was raised in an Idaho cabin, who was forbidden to go to school. Her mom taught her to read the Bible. And off she went. She's now a professor at Oxford. She educated herself.
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Old 05-08-18, 09:13 AM
  #98  
Carbonfiberboy 
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Originally Posted by redlude97 View Post
WTF is mechanical science? Don't you mean mechanical engineering? Attia is a hack. BTW my credentials are a PhD in Biochemical Engineering, and I'm currently a postdoc in an immunology lab studying CD8 t-cells in T1D. My background isn't strictly in human physiology/metabolism or exercise physiology but it is one of my areas of interest, and I like to think I have more than a passing knowledge of the major concepts. What are your credentials? How about you summarize Attia's findings in your own words so we can have a fruitful discussion?
Hey, good luck on your postdoc! Way to go.
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Old 05-08-18, 03:47 PM
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Originally Posted by redlude97 View Post
Attia is a hack,
It seems to me the Taubes / Attia "are hacks" crowd of critics mimic the 'Hillary child slavery' / 'govt. delivering chemicals through jet contrails' / 'deep state' attack dog style in their scientific commentary. Leave me out of it, both of these gentlemen do a fine job of representing themselves in the books & articles, TED talks, etc.

Personally, Attis' history as an open water endurance swimmer, boxer, marathon runner gives him more credibly in my eyes. He is very much a proof of concept guy, as I see it.



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Old 05-08-18, 03:54 PM
  #100  
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Originally Posted by FrenchFit View Post
It seems to me the Taubes / Attia "are hacks" crowd of critics mimic the 'Hillary child slavery' / 'govt. delivering chemicals through jet contrails' / 'deep state' attack dog style in their scientific commentary. Leave me out of it, both of these gentlemen do a fine job of representing themselves in the books & articles, TED talks, etc.



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So continuing with the attacks, ignoring the questions, not providing your own credentials, and not backing up claims made with your own undertanding. Got it. So glad we could have this fruitful discussion after all.
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