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Old 04-25-18, 05:13 PM
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As an alternate, I don't eat anything during my rides. I fuel up on complex carbs the day before and that is generally enough for 4 hours. After 4 hours I'm totally depleted so I carry a protein bar if I'm not back home by then Just in case of emergencies.

Full disclosure: if the ride is impromptu, I will eat something light but typically keep a leisurely pace.
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Old 04-25-18, 05:17 PM
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Originally Posted by KraneXL View Post
Wow! That's a lot of calories.

I need those calories because I am physically active all day, all those smoothie calories come from wholesome foods...I drink that about 6:30-7:00 in the morning, my next meal is at noon....My two biggest feeding are early morning and then late evening dinner...during the day I eat very light.
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Old 04-25-18, 05:28 PM
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Originally Posted by redlude97 View Post
Doing work in a glycogen/blood glucose depleted state is beneficial to submaximal and threshold types of efforts, and being less food dependant on subsequent rides at all intensities. Without getting into the metabolic details which I don't fully understand, the longer time you can spend in this state the more fat adaption that will occur. I think we are both in agreement on that.

Now sure, there are many ways to skin a cat. You've outlined quite a few, but they all essentially revolve around achieving this glycogen depleted state and being able to do work beyond this point. The major changes when glycogen depleted are that you have to rely on fatty acid oxidation which varies with intensity to some extent, and on gluconeogensis to supply glucose to the brain.

<snip>

Sorry for the long post, the reasoning makes sense to me and seems like an easy, time efficient strategy to employ for those of us who don't have 4-6 hours to go on rides all the time. Whether you use just a normal IF to boost your training or incorporate a sleep low strategy into it. Fat adaption helps, find a way that you can incorporate it into your workouts. I can do it 5 days a week with my 1+hour commute on just coffee, and I've worked up to the point of doing those commutes at sweet spot normalized power. Works for me and I lost ~20lbs in the process last summer by the fall cyclocross season while still increasing fitness.
I appreciate the long post. However my experience gives me problems with it, mostly this idea that one must exhaust one's glycogen before one can improve one's fatty acid oxidation. I wish I understood all this much better but there's just very little info in the literature.

So #1 is that it's extremely difficult to exhaust one's muscle glycogen. That's called bonking and it's never pleasant. Fasted resting does almost nothing to deplete muscle gycogen. Between a fully digested dinner at whatever time and awakening, there's no change. So the fasted athlete starts their workout with a full load of muscle glycogen. So what's being accomplished, especially by going hard for an hour, other than the usual good effects of going hard and burning a decent amount of glycogen? So what did fasting accomplish?

#2, there was a poster here who was very into polarized training. He did a tremendous amount of work below VT1. He was working hard on increasing his fat oxidation by so doing. His method was to measure his blood lactate. If his blood lactate rose above resting levels, he knew he was going too hard. The object was to get to be able to train just below VT1 with zero increase in blood lactate. Now here's the part I'm not sure I'm correct about: my research seems to indicate that the oxidation of carbohydrate results in increases in blood lactate. The oxidation of fatty acids does not. Is so? If so, our poster was exercising at up to VT1 while burning only fat. With no change to his muscle glycogen. I.e. no dietary alteration was necessary for this achievement, only lots of riding at a moderate pace.

#3, my experience. Today, I went on my first fat-burner ride of the year. It's a sunny day and I had the time. I had breakfast, a very small bean burrito from a 6" corn tortilla, a glass of juice, and 15g of whey protein. Two hours later, when my blood sugar had stabilized, I rode for 33 miles and 1500' gain, a 2 hour ride. I took one bottle of sports drink with me, nothing else, and did not touch the sports drink.

I rode the hills in the first couple miles hard, to deplete my blood sugar, and then settled down to ride mostly below VT1. Almost all the climbing was in the first 15 miles. At that point, my blood sugar was way down. I could tell because my HR at VT1 had dropped 6 beats and I had the usual hypoglycemic symptoms, this being my first fat-burner ride.

I kept up the below-VT1 pace so as not to access glycogen and pop my blood sugar/lactate back up. My experience is that as I repeat these sorts of rides as the season goes on, I need to eat less and less on training rides until I can do 4 hour hilly training rides on our tandem on ~500 calories of sugar. So I'm saying that these below-VT1 training rides increase my ability to oxidize fat with no dietary intervention other than not eating on the ride, or much glycogen depletion. After I got back, I had 15g sugar and 25g protein in a recovery drink and ate a small lunch. I'm not hungry and won't need to snack before dinner, more evidence that I wasn't burning much in the way of carbs, mostly fat.

Strava estimated 954 kj, but that's probably low because I had a good headwind all the way back. TP gave me a hrTSS of only 114, my HR being so low during most of the ride.

Be all the forgoing as it may, there's still little evidence that training low produces performance increases:
https://www.peakendurancesport.com/e...ogen-training/
However my opinion is that most train low studies don't incorporate sufficient training which stresses the glycolytic pathways.

So what's your take on this?
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Old 04-25-18, 06:13 PM
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I IF everyday. I fast overnight and I break the fast in the morning.
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Old 04-25-18, 06:34 PM
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Originally Posted by Carbonfiberboy View Post
I appreciate the long post. However my experience gives me problems with it, mostly this idea that one must exhaust one's glycogen before one can improve one's fatty acid oxidation. I wish I understood all this much better but there's just very little info in the literature.

So #1 is that it's extremely difficult to exhaust one's muscle glycogen. That's called bonking and it's never pleasant. Fasted resting does almost nothing to deplete muscle gycogen. Between a fully digested dinner at whatever time and awakening, there's no change. So the fasted athlete starts their workout with a full load of muscle glycogen. So what's being accomplished, especially by going hard for an hour, other than the usual good effects of going hard and burning a decent amount of glycogen? So what did fasting accomplish?
Agreed that you aren't completely exhausting muscle glycogen, almost impossible to do as a mentioned, but practically speaking we are trying to arrive at this pre bonking state and staying there to get the fat adaption, the amount of liver and muscle glycogen that is depleted isn't well studied as far as a iknow.
A fasted athlete starts with full muscle glycogen(which can't be mobilized to other muscles like liver glycogen) but depleted liver glycogen(not fully) and lower blood glucose, and increased fatty acid oxidation pathways. There are some signaling pathways that are upregulated here that wouldn't be turned on after a meal. Is it as good as being at the pre bonk state most of us get after 2-3 hours without food? Probably not quite there but it kickstarts that process. It is more efficient.

Originally Posted by Carbonfiberboy View Post
#2, there was a poster here who was very into polarized training. He did a tremendous amount of work below VT1. He was working hard on increasing his fat oxidation by so doing. His method was to measure his blood lactate. If his blood lactate rose above resting levels, he knew he was going too hard. The object was to get to be able to train just below VT1 with zero increase in blood lactate. Now here's the part I'm not sure I'm correct about: my research seems to indicate that the oxidation of carbohydrate results in increases in blood lactate. The oxidation of fatty acids does not. Is so? If so, our poster was exercising at up to VT1 while burning only fat. With no change to his muscle glycogen. I.e. no dietary alteration was necessary for this achievement, only lots of riding at a moderate pace.
At no state even at rest are we burning only fat. VT1 occurs at 40-60% of V02max for most people so you can see roughly the contribution from each.

If you look at the Cori cycle then you see how lactate is converted back to glucose in the liver, so at lower output levels he's just at a steady state conversion, just like at MLSS you reach another plateu



Originally Posted by Carbonfiberboy View Post
#3, my experience. Today, I went on my first fat-burner ride of the year. It's a sunny day and I had the time. I had breakfast, a very small bean burrito from a 6" corn tortilla, a glass of juice, and 15g of whey protein. Two hours later, when my blood sugar had stabilized, I rode for 33 miles and 1500' gain, a 2 hour ride. I took one bottle of sports drink with me, nothing else, and did not touch the sports drink.

I rode the hills in the first couple miles hard, to deplete my blood sugar, and then settled down to ride mostly below VT1. Almost all the climbing was in the first 15 miles. At that point, my blood sugar was way down. I could tell because my HR at VT1 had dropped 6 beats and I had the usual hypoglycemic symptoms, this being my first fat-burner ride.

I kept up the below-VT1 pace so as not to access glycogen and pop my blood sugar/lactate back up. My experience is that as I repeat these sorts of rides as the season goes on, I need to eat less and less on training rides until I can do 4 hour hilly training rides on our tandem on ~500 calories of sugar. So I'm saying that these below-VT1 training rides increase my ability to oxidize fat with no dietary intervention other than not eating on the ride, or much glycogen depletion. After I got back, I had 15g sugar and 25g protein in a recovery drink and ate a small lunch. I'm not hungry and won't need to snack before dinner, more evidence that I wasn't burning much in the way of carbs, mostly fat.

Strava estimated 954 kj, but that's probably low because I had a good headwind all the way back. TP gave me a hrTSS of only 114, my HR being so low during most of the ride.
See above in terms of accessing glycogen. Since the first 15 miles were climbing I'm going to assume that at least the 1st hour was used to deplete glycogen and reach that pre bonk stage, the remaining <1hr was in this fat adaption zone. I'd like to see you repeat that ride in a fasted state, its real nice here this week, maybe tomorrow morning or fri/sat? I would guess you get to the HR dip point earlier in the ride. I want to make it clear that fasted training isn't the only way to get these adaptions, its just a more efficient way. I've been slacking all winter and my FTP has tanked, but I'm about a month into resuming my fasted morning commutes, and felt like I retained much of my adaptions from last season. I haven't even done any rides over an hour until last weekend(snowboard season is finally coming to an end) Here's a ride I did on Sat which was similar to yours, completed fasted for ~18 hours(last meal around 7pm previous day, started ride at noon) https://www.strava.com/activities/1523213463#. Similar distance/time/elevation, IF 0.91(SST), ~1300kJ(actual) all without any food/calories. I also carried a bottle of sports mix but didn't touch it.

Originally Posted by Carbonfiberboy View Post
Be all the forgoing as it may, there's still little evidence that training low produces performance increases:
https://www.peakendurancesport.com/e...ogen-training/
However my opinion is that most train low studies don't incorporate sufficient training which stresses the glycolytic pathways.

So what's your take on this?
Training low trains a few specific adaptions but don't allow you to do quality work thats necessary for racing, would be good for ultradistance types of races like RAAM but I don't think it would help at all for things like crits and cyclocross etc. Figuring out how to get both types of training in and getting both benefits is what the sleep low train high strategy Dr. Hawley is studying can maybe do this. I haven't tested it yet, and probably won't. The idea of a protein shake and no carbs for dinner after a ride doesn't appeal to me at all, but the research is interesting. I think we both agree we need to train low(however you get there is up to you) and train high to meet all the demands of cycling, which differs significantly from running in regards to variation in intensity.
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Old 04-25-18, 06:39 PM
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Originally Posted by Daniel4 View Post
I IF everyday. I fast overnight and I break the fast in the morning.
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Old 04-25-18, 09:26 PM
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I remember all the crazy comments & predictions from friends some 4 years ago when I started IF'ing. Now they refer to me as an "athlete", what a joke. Just because I lost 40 pounds and can run for two hours without whining they think I've become something hardcore. Well, once your switch from carb burning to fat burning lots of surprising things happen.

Today I finished my training for my first race, a legit 10K (foot race) -- celebrating the beginning of my pension I guess. Eight weeks of serious running and strength training, and I did improve my race pace by about 25%. We'll see how it goes this weekend. I did adjust my IF'ing routine, a banana in the morning, protein bar in the afternoon post run.

Looking backwards, about 80% of everything I read on the interwebz about IF'ing was nonsense for this mind and body, you find out for yourself what works for you. I think Ori's book, Warrior Diet, was a great place to start but you find out over time were you need to design it to your lifestyle and needs.

IF'ing, best lifestyle decision I've ever made.
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Old 04-26-18, 03:04 AM
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IF is not some magic cure all for everything that ails your. However, it does have many amazing benefits and when use in conjunction with other good healthy habits, it can make a very significant in your overall health and well being.

One of the best things about IF is that it is not a one-size-fits-all system. Rather, a regiment that can be modified in many ways to fit a wide variety of lifestyles and goal. You can use it to lose weight, build muscle, give your digestive system a much needed break or a combination of all of these. I will admit that not everyone wants or needs to go to the extreme, but with a little bit of discipline anyone can benefit at whatever level you choose whether you're an average individual or an extreme athlete.

IF is also good in that you don't need to jump into it all at once. You can apply it gradually, and lengthen it as you feel the need and as your schedule will allow. The 16/8 protocol is what is typically accepted as the base point. But you can reap the benefits even if you only fast twice a week. You just need to get over the initial hunger hump which can certainly be a challenge for many. I know it was for me.
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Old 04-26-18, 11:50 PM
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OMAD: Applying IF to help you lose weight this season 🥑

OMAD: One Meal a Day

Healthy ways to lose weight

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Old 04-28-18, 08:18 PM
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Originally Posted by FrenchFit View Post
Today I finished my training for my first race, a legit 10K (foot race) -- celebrating the beginning of my pension I guess. Eight weeks of serious running and strength training, and I did improve my race pace by about 25%. We'll see how it goes this weekend. I did adjust my IF'ing routine, a banana in the morning, protein bar in the afternoon post run.

.
Total brag, but today's results are my actually winning my age group, in my first 10K race. I'm really am sort of stunned, I was just happy to finish without being winded and looking stupid. What a nice surprise.

Race breakfast, a banana at 6am, Race dinner the night before, gourmet burger and chocolate at 4pm..
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Old 04-29-18, 04:55 AM
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Originally Posted by KraneXL View Post
OMAD: One Meal a Day

Healthy ways to lose weight



A couple of years ago I got a book called Warrior Diet....Warrior Diet is based on eating one large meal per day. It's actually not too bad because you're allowed to eat or drink very small snacks during the day. The bulk of your daily calories is to be eaten during a short feeding window in the evening... Personally I need about 2700 - 3000 calories per day at the moment in order to maintain my weight and sustain my active lifestyle and I found it really difficult to stuff that many calories within a short feeding window at the end of the day.
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Old 04-29-18, 08:18 AM
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Originally Posted by wolfchild View Post
A couple of years ago I got a book called Warrior Diet....Warrior Diet is based on eating one large meal per day. It's actually not too bad because you're allowed to eat or drink very small snacks during the day. The bulk of your daily calories is to be eaten during a short feeding window in the evening... Personally I need about 2700 - 3000 calories per day at the moment in order to maintain my weight and sustain my active lifestyle and I found it really difficult to stuff that many calories within a short feeding window at the end of the day.
As I posted in another thread I got started on the Warrior Diet, I guess is was 4-5 years ago. I give alot of credit to Ori's book, though I deviated substantially over time. My memory might be a little faulty, but I lost 20 pounds going the IF route, then another 20 pounds adding the low carb component. Gary Taubes Good Calorie Bad Calorie was the other book that was life changing for me. I am very thankful both those books came my way..
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Old 04-29-18, 06:13 PM
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Originally Posted by wolfchild View Post
A couple of years ago I got a book called Warrior Diet...Warrior Diet is based on eating one large meal per day. It's actually not too bad because you're allowed to eat or drink very small snacks during the day. The bulk of your daily calories is to be eaten during a short feeding window in the evening... Personally I need about 2700 - 3000 calories per day at the moment in order to maintain my weight and sustain my active lifestyle and I found it really difficult to stuff that many calories within a short feeding window at the end of the day.
One word: caloric density. It is not very difficult to pack 1000 cal.+ into one convenient and easily consumed nutritional shake.

After that initial jump start for me, consuming those last few hundred calories is a cake walk. In any event, its best used when you're on a weight-loss diets.

I'm trying it now and will update on how well it works out.
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Old 04-29-18, 06:38 PM
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Originally Posted by KraneXL View Post
One word: caloric density. It is not very difficult to pack 1000 cal.+ into one convenient and easily consumed nutritional shake.
Consuming 1000 calories in one meal is nothing. ..My breakfast smoothie has almost 1100 calories....However, trying to stuff 2700-3000 calories within a 4 hour "feeding window" at the end of the day in the evening before bedtime is very hard. That why I need to spread those calories between 3-4 feedings per day
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Old 04-30-18, 07:46 AM
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Originally Posted by FrenchFit View Post
Total brag, but today's results are my actually winning my age group, in my first 10K race. I'm really am sort of stunned, I was just happy to finish without being winded and looking stupid. What a nice surprise.

Race breakfast, a banana at 6am, Race dinner the night before, gourmet burger and chocolate at 4pm..
Nice work.
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Old 04-30-18, 11:41 AM
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Thank you.

A training tip for old racers based on my experience: Although the pro training programs available on the net are valuable and effective, they are just too long for older competitors. I think I would have been faster if I had raced 3-4 weeks ago, reaching my peak after the first month of training. Those 8 week programs might be fine if you're in your twenties, but I'd say knock off a week for every decade older. Intensity didn't seem to be an issue, but the overall fatigue factor seems to be cumulative after a month, I was feeling pretty stale there at the end.
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Old 04-30-18, 05:17 PM
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After a week of increasing my fasting days by 3x24 hours I don't feel any worse for wear. I did also institute a lower carbs diet (I have a sweet tooth) and the effects from that were very apparent during my anaerobic workout. Right from the start I could barely focus and have very little energy.

I can now say unequivocally that carbs are essential when working out whether it be aerobic or anaerobically. No wonder Lyle recommends not working out during a PSMF diet.
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Old 04-30-18, 05:53 PM
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Originally Posted by KraneXL View Post

I can now say unequivocally that carbs are essential when working out whether it be aerobic or anaerobically.
That's nothing new. Humans knew that since ancient times.
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Old 04-30-18, 06:18 PM
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Originally Posted by wolfchild View Post
That's nothing new. Humans knew that since ancient times.
And yet half of the members here still swear by fasted aerobic training? Did they not read the handbook?

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Old 04-30-18, 06:40 PM
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Originally Posted by KraneXL View Post
An yet half of the members here still swear by fasted aerobic training? Did they not read the handbook?
Not sure if you are being purposefully obtuse or not, but fasted training is something to employ for specific training adaptions or body composition goals. It isn't meant for all facets of training
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Old 04-30-18, 07:23 PM
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Originally Posted by redlude97 View Post
Not sure if you are being purposefully obtuse or not, but fasted training is something to employ for specific training adaptions or body composition goals. It isn't meant for all facets of training
What may be considered common knowledge to you is not always clear across the board. Read some of the inquiries/responses and you'll see that. Besides, nutritional information is not a learn it once and move on science. Research is a continuing process, so what might be true today, could change drastically tomorrow. That's the whole point of threads like these. To stay current and on top of the most cutting-edge research available.
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Old 05-02-18, 02:05 PM
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Originally Posted by KraneXL View Post
After a week of increasing my fasting days by 3x24 hours I don't feel any worse for wear. I did also institute a lower carbs diet (I have a sweet tooth) and the effects from that were very apparent during my anaerobic workout. Right from the start I could barely focus and have very little energy.

I can now say unequivocally that carbs are essential when working out whether it be aerobic or anaerobically. No wonder Lyle recommends not working out during a PSMF diet.
Originally Posted by KraneXL View Post
And yet half of the members here still swear by fasted aerobic training? Did they not read the handbook?
Originally Posted by KraneXL View Post
What may be considered common knowledge to you is not always clear across the board. Read some of the inquiries/responses and you'll see that. Besides, nutritional information is not a learn it once and move on science. Research is a continuing process, so what might be true today, could change drastically tomorrow. That's the whole point of threads like these. To stay current and on top of the most cutting-edge research available.
If you've been following the thread, why would you think a fasted low carb state would be a good idea for an anaerobic workout? Also not sure how you extrapolated out to aerobic workouts?
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Old 05-02-18, 05:52 PM
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Originally Posted by redlude97 View Post
If you've been following the thread, why would you think a fasted low carb state would be a good idea for an anaerobic workout?
Research results and personal experience.
Also not sure how you extrapolated out to aerobic workouts?
Because you can't have an A without a B. What? There's a lot of information in those quotes. Highlight the specifics or include a complete question.
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Old 05-02-18, 06:19 PM
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fantom1 
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Originally Posted by KraneXL View Post
In my experience, everyone that has complained about mobility issues (save traumatic injury) knees, hip, back, etc. have been overweight.
Then your "experience" of life has been lived in some sort of pyschotic state, far removed from most other people's reality.

This is literally one of the most ridiculous things I've read on this forum.

Anyhow, you're whole premise about increasing performance through fasting is wrong. There is no data that supports it, and frankly no top athletes have ever done it because it doesn't work. You might lose weight, but that doesn't mean much. Ride more and eat smarter if you want to lose fat weight. Everything you've written sounds straight from the vegan and/or cross fit evangelist handbook. Not to mention focusing on BF% is a very poor idea, and whatever method you are using to estimate it is probably wrong.
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Old 05-02-18, 06:25 PM
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Originally Posted by KraneXL View Post
OMAD: One Meal a Day
I've been doing that for years. Wouldn't consider 16 hours without eating to be fasting as that's fairly common for me. I never intended this pattern and it isn't intended for training or weight loss, it just evolved over time. I was never one to eat much first thing in the morning and over time I lost interest in lunch. Some days I'll have a scone or a doughnut if I encounter such snacks, other days I'll eat nothing until 8 pm or so.
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