No it's not really, it's just saying I trust the manufacturer of my garment enough to know that when ever they use a Gortex product in my garment, I know it meets my expectations of what I'm use to using.

Again, I don't care how breathable another material is in lab tests. My test is in the store to how it fits and feels, outside to how it performs, where it really counts. So far I have not been disappointed with any Gore product I have owned, regardless of how much you tell me I should be.

How are my jackets inferior? In the labs? Have you worn them in my situations to tell me they have failed? Do you have the same body mechanics and physic as I, to say what works for me and what doesn't? How about fit and feel? That's one of the biggest factor for me in choosing a garment. It's a straw man argument you make, for I know what works for me, and what I like and want. I will try an Event Shower pass Jacket sometime, for cycling because I'm always open to try new tech stuff, but there is no way I would ever give up my TNF Gortex Jackets for basic outdoor use, not yet anyway, for they have far exceeded my expectations. They have earned my trust over the many years of use.

Sure there may be better systems out there on paper, but when the rubber hits the road, I place more faith in a Manufacturer's design than material.. That is just a small component of it, and I trust products from the North Face, Patagonia, Mountain Hardware. I like their designs, the materials, the colors, I like the warranty, but most of all I like the fit, feel and finish. Does that mean I'm not open to something else? Absolutely not, but so far everything I want is made with Gore and is usually by The North face. I have yet to see a peice in Event or what ever other Wunder material, that I really like and would want.

All the old 3 layers I have, have worked and proven themselves to me, in fact so much so I still use them. My New XCR jacket I have is fantastic and you can't tell me otherwise because I'm wearing it, and it flat out works

What more is there really to argue about...? If it didn't work, I sure would not be using it repeatedly over the years, now would I.....? I think I would be lookignfor something else by now.


While you sit back and laugh, I too sit back and laugh that you are trying to tell me what does or doesn't work for me, and that I can't possibly be happy

I wore my XCR coat again today... and loved it even more I also wore my XCR shoes. I was totally "gore'd up". Sure it wasnt raining out... but it is cold and windy Fact is.. goretex works, if there are better products out there, I probably just havent tried them. Mostly because if I am spending $500 on a coat, I want to KNOW it works... not speculate. Maybe I will buy a "cheaper" other brand garment next time... if it works well, then I might move up to larger products.

Before criticizing gore-tex, consider what existed before it. Wool, a proprietary mixed bag of (insert name here) and increasingly popular polartec fleece. Polartec was soooo breathable when it first came out that Gore-tex was its perfect partner in marriage. That was then.

While I haven't tried XCR, their standard product, windstopper and Paclite all leave me moistening up and over burdening the "interior climate". Pit zips are mandatory and, I think, do a great job at mediating between extremes on a bike. If one is simply pedaling point to point in the cold/severe cold, gore may be the way to go, but lets see if we can make this more interesting and put it in terms of heart rate zones.

I find that below 135, I'm buttoned down and comfy inside a membrane system. At 140-160, I'm playing with the pit zips and at 160+, there is no keeping up with the moisture created, no matter the outside temperature (disclosure: never gone below 10F). To open pit zips when its 20, or below, can be a shock if you've let a little too much moisture build up. In my quest for a 10-32 degree solution, I am at this point going to go with panels and not full coverage, or over to non-Gore alltogether.

Cycling is a unique application. Compared to downhill skiing, heart rates go up when the wind speed drops (uphill) and you need venting. Then they go down when the wind speed picks and you need warmth. More challenging, er what? Suffice to say, I would take a paneled jacket of any material over a single material jacket and that's where I think the materials threads may be a little miss-guided on this cycling forum.

I have been a big fan of gortex over the years, coming from a backround of marathon speedskating and ultra running. It sure saved my boney frame in many sub zero competitons. Now into long distance cycling the benifits of this material is worth every hard earned cent. I especially like the gore panels on my bike tights.....wind shield factor goodbye. Another factor with this amazing material is it's durablity. I'm wearing some 15+yr old jackets that are still in good shape. I say go for it if you have the extra bucks.

The chart you linked to shows that Gore works better in humid conditions than in dry conditions. But all tests were done with a 50% humidity gradient (difference between sides of the samples).

Like the tread mill, Best Bike frame material argument that surfaces here once a week, there is more to a garment than just the material. Equally as important is the design and execution.

Yeah, I really didnt start this thread to become a comparison of materials... but it has kinda turned into that. I think its cool though, as I like to hear the debate. Obviously, many of these topics involve a certain degree of personal preference, but there is some science to the matters as well. Thats why the debates are so great.

Anyway, we all know Aluminum is the best frame material

The original post was about the material, not a jacket, thats what i've been talking about. Jacket manufacturers make a huge difference, but i never mentioned one in any of my posts, because i wasnt talking about a finished product, i was talking about a material.

Color, fit, etc is the fashion side of the equation, thats personal preference and also not what i was talking about. You can defend North Face all you want, i never questioned the end maker. I provided information regarding materials, any of which can be made into good jackets, or crappy jackets.

Yes an end garment is more than material. Just as in my light analogy, you can have a good halogen, and crappy hid, but the hid technology beats halogen in lighting performance.

Also, there is a lot more than a single lab test showing gore's slide in performance lead in recent years, so no I dont base my decisions on a 'lab test' either.

I switched out of goretex gaiters almost 10 years ago because they don't breathe well enough! uncoated packcloth shorties gaitiers from OR work MUCH better to keep my lower legs drier without the big calf sheathing effects of goretex gaiters -even on multiday backcountry ski trips. Knee gaiters are good for serious bushwacking, but you're better off with a set of timber cruiser chaps from Filson if you're doing some serious 'thwacking.

sometimes you need a WB coat, but you're better off the less you wear them.

Unlaminated fabrics technologies, my friends, are what gets you better performing outdoor fabrics, for all conditions. I like name brand outdoor gear, but prefer my Patagoinias without a WB liner whenever possible. I've even got a TENT that's made from NON-waterproof fabric, but it works great. It's more breathable, and packs up small as a quart water bottle too.

If you think riding or skating or cross country skiing is great in goretex(why??) Try the Ibex softshells. There is NO comparision in 85 percent of weather conditions.

I do not praise the Gore when there are much better jackets approaching the golden fleece that even Jason and the Argonauts would rally round.

I own both gaiters from Outdoor Research, The Shorties and the Crocodiles, the Shorties work OK, but never make it out of my Outdoor bin. I prefer the Crocodiles for the extra protection they provide. I bought them initially to hike the West Coast Trail and never noticed reduced breathability even when they were coated with muck and mud. Now I just use them more for BC skiing and winter Hiking, mostly for keeping snow out of my boots. I prefer the way they work.





Those uncoated shorties would not have worked as well on the WTC. Even though my boots are 1 peice waterproof leather, water still gets into the boot. My Goretex socks stopped my feet from becoming a prunny mess after 10 hours of slogging in wet boots.



You said that before, however your evidence seems lacking to me. I use my WB jacket and pants the most of any garment other than my boots and shorts. It has never hampered me, again having a good design helps as it feels nearly like a un coated shell, yet it's WB. I have participated in countless outdoor activity's this way, and will continue to do so.


I own quite a few tents from a single wall Bibler, a TNF Expedition VE25, Sierra Designs Stretch Dome, a Moss Big Dipper. I know in a storm or after a week of solid raining I would rather the coated tents like the Moss and the VE 25. What you use depends on what you are doing and how you plan to use it.

An uncoated tent why bother? You may as well use a Siltarp from Integral designs, it's lighter, and is at least waterproof It packs to the size smaller than a 355ml can of pop.



Here we are using one as a cook kitchen during a full day of rain, make that a week of rain


Why? Ahh, because it works... besides, I'll pack along both and use what ever suits the situation, or drop one of the other. My routines are not cast in stone, and is activity and weather dependant, however I know what works for me, If it doesn't work for you, carry on then....



And I'll continue to praise my Gore jackets, because they are indispensable to me. With a good quality XCR jacket, gone is the potato chip bag feel. The jacket is much softer in hand and supple. It stretches, and it breaths, yet is water proof. It's been a winning combination for me so far.

It's not perfect, but it approaches it closer than any other garment I have tried or thought about buying, and I like buying

do you think, viper, that i don't do the same types of things you do out in the woods, trails and mountains? Duuude...... and what makes you think I don't use siltarps? I've got a couple of Integral Designs siltarps, an I.D. Svarsky ski guides silshelter, a Golite Silnylon pyramid, and other assorted lightweight shelters like the Black Diamond Betamid and the Black Diamond Lighthouse.

Viperx, I've been sleeping in snowbanks for nearly 30 years now. I honed my teeth on long wilderness trips in winter before I was a teenager. I've served on a mountain rescue team, volunteer with the rangers on Mount Rainier in the winter, tested gear for MSR. I founded a climber's festival, I worked for Marmot, I made plans last night with Fred Beckey to go skiing this weekend.

Goretex is NOT the golden fleece, it does not breathe enough for active sports. You are still convinced goretex is the greatest thing for outdoor sports since synthetic fabrics were invented, and I soundly disagree. I think people that still wear a lot of Gore (and laud it) as being stuck with 20th century fabric technologies.


Here's an anecdote I've seen repeated in high mountain terrain, in full conditions, both as a member of a Mountain Rescue Team, and as a backcountry ski patroller on Rainier.

(Example: Blizzard, 80MPH winds, person stranded in the high country on 12,000 foot Mount Adams. Also, Mount Rainier, ALL the time, all conditions)

ME: Wool, softshells ( I have a great mountain jacket from Patagonia, a %100 windproof, unlaminated softshell made of a tough-as-nails dobbyknit that keeps out 80MPH winds and is 3 times as abrasion and tear resistant as a Goretex shell)

OTHER TEAM MEMBERS: Traditional synthetic layers, goretex shells.

REPEATEDLY, I have been out all day on searches or patrols, and once the team stops, the people in Goretex and synthetics immediately experience evaporative cooling and begin to suffer miserably once stopped. Me, in wool and softshells, am dry and comfortable. Little to no evaporative cooling.


WHY? Because by NOT WEARING A GORETEX SHELL, I've avoided building up a layer of sweat inside my clothes. Goretex is a sweatbox during activity.

I could care less about your muddy feet. you taking pictures of them shows you must be amused by the novelty of it all. Personally, I could care less.

I've been dirtbagging it out in the woods for most of my life. Someone that thinks goretex is the greatest thing since sliced bread is still a tenderfoot. I KNOW the limitations and poor performance characteristics of wearing goretex as your outer layers.

think about this word too - its a case of greenhorn Goretex love.

You can delude yourself all you want, ViperZ, but you can't fool a bonifide dirtbag. I had a Bibler toddtex tent for years, replaced it with an Epic canopied tent. I'm am suitably impressed by it. and it ISN'T WATERPROOF.

Even your tents you've mentioned are pigs. Heavy tents, bro. I last carried a VE-25 when it was still the VE-24 with the snow tunnels. That's too heavy of a tent for everything short of a Himalyan expedition. You brought one to hike the beaches on the West Coast Trail. (hahahaha) And the Big Dipper? You actually backpack with that thing?


There are MUCH better fabrics for your everyday wear and weather than Goretex.

I've got a Goretex LL Bean Stowaway hooded parka. In the morning I put it on over my suit and tie and ride to work. Perfect comfort down to 0F, and vastly more convenient than driving in DC traffic. If I start to get warm, I unzip. It cost $169, which is chump change. I'd consider it a perfect piece of commuter wear.

Whether or not it would be suitable for hard work in a rainy foreast is another matter. I suspect that it would not. That is because it is not great in the rain (although not nearly as hot as a waterproof raincoat).

I'd say how good it is depends upon the use. It is really good for some things.

Paul

Wow, no need to get all snotty, with hate... Did I hit a nerve or something?


You're still not pissed about how badly you were shown the door on the Tinkerbell HID/ LED thread are you? Let it go man, go outdoors and relax.... Arguing on the Internet isn't worth it.


I think nothing of the sort, I'm sure you have experience, however your experience does not mesh with mine. So what? You want to pin me down and have me say you're right, even though I think differently and I know what works for me? If you were really experienced as you say you are, you should realise different things work for different people, depending on the situation and many other factors.

I have submitted goretex can be over kill for cycling, however I have also submitted that it works for the situations I used it in.

I'm not trying to fool you, or convert you, just telling you my experiences. Regardless of what you say, to me, you are wrong when it comes to my experiences. As I may be wrong when it come to you and your experiences.

As to the muddy feet, just showing how those Short gaiters you say are better than Crocodiles would not have worked as well in that situation. In a different situation, the shoties will have their day, just nothing I have done recently.


The Big Dipper, actually we bought it for car camping, but we have backpacked it. One time 3 of us headed out winter camping in the Rockies and we split the tent between the 3 of us. It was lighter than carrying 2 smaller tents.

The tent on the beach is actually an Expedition 25, it was the smallest tent I had at the time, but it kept us dry and comfortable. I bought it for winter ski camping.


It's seems a pissing match is all your looking for.... Simmer down, that's not what this is all about, I respect your opinions even if they don't apply to me.

Viperz, you should stop lauding Goretex as a near-perfect outer shell layer for aerobic sports like bicycling and other aerobic activities, because IT'S NOT EVEN CLOSE to the best performing fabric for this type of activity, particularily winter bicycling.

IN MY EXPERIENCE, I find goretex lacking, even for those other people that are using it. I've watched many cases of 'lunch stop hypothermia' by people in goretex parkas in the mountains, viper.

Goretex doesn't work as well as other fabric technologies, even for the people that wear Goretex and think it works great. That's what years of experience has taught me, observing many people up on Rainier or just out there.

sorry, Viper, but anyone wearing gorts and carrying a VE-25 on the beach, yet still thinks his advice sound, needs rebuttal from a bonifide outdoor dirtbag.

I have been riding everyday in winter with my gortex jacket... It works, what else would you like me to say?

I ski in my gortex jackets and have no problems or fear of hypothermia...What more would you like me to say?

Years of experience has taught me goretex works for me, if that makes me a green horn, I can deal with it... What more would you like me to say?

That's an Expedition 25, it's what I had, we used it, it worked fine. Are you really such an outdoor snob? People do what we do with lesser equipment. What more would you like me to say?

I not preaching my advice as gospel like you, rather I'm just reflecting on my experience for my situations, I don't hold it on a pedestal. Use what works for you, however your chest beating, mud slinging and condescension loses you a lot of credibility.

Dude, as much as you'd like me to agree with you, I won't. I'm not an outdoor SNOB, I'm one of the original grovelling dirtbags that was wearing 60/40 cloth parkas before Goretex was even invented.

I'm sharing my experiences too, Viperz.

This is about the OP and other greenhorns lauding goretex as the golden fleece of outdoor clothing. IT'S NOT.

You're bogged down with your 20th century outdoor fabrics paradigm, viperz.

Might I suggest something with a bit better performance characteristics for the majority of your outdoor activities?

-When I was working at Marmot, I was lauded by one of the regional Goretex reps as being extremely knowledgable on softshell jacket technologies.
The rep was doing some secret shopper type research and i got to talking to him about jackets. After he let on he was with Gore, he said I had given him the "BEST explaination of outdoor shell technology he'd ever heard" and asked to use me as an example at a national sales meeting.

The W.L. Gore Europe people even heard about me, and came searching me out, to talk about softshell jacket technologies and consumer perception when they were in the Northwest.

there are BETTER FABRICS for aerobic activities like winter bicycling, ski mountaineering and the like than Goretex. I can certainely suggest some lighter tents too....

And, in case any of you HAVEN'T noticed, W.L. Gore and associates is putting a lot more tech into their softshell fabrics the last few years.... look at Gore bikewears many different, NON-waterproof fabrics offered in their bike clothing lineup.... Jarery has some merited criticisms of Gore windstopper technologies however. But Gore is even using and pimping nonlaminated fabrics... theres a lot of R&D going into NON-WATERPROOF clothing technologies.

But, hey, if a Gore rep thinks I could explain outdoor fabric technologies so well he used me as an example at a national sales meeting, told Gore Europe about me and then THEY came to talk to me about jacket technology, I guess our advice carries the same weight, viperz?

I'm just trying to help. stop being so harsh on your elders, viperz.

When it comes down to expertise, viperz, sometimes people that know what they are talking about, KNOW WHAT THEY ARE TALKING ABOUT.

D00d, It's not just the material as it's also the design and execution. I agreed there may well be better fabrics, but for my use I have no need for them for what I have works, and I like the look, the fit and feel of what I have. What part of that don't you understand? I'm not looking for your agreement.



Why would I not laud something that works for me?


If it makes you feel better then I'll say.. "bekologist, you are clearly the harder core outdoor person, and what you say is all right, it was foolish of me to think I was remotely comfortable. I'll replace all my 20th century equipment and follow in your foot steps."

Seriously, I'm sure you are an accomplished outdoorsman, and what you say is your truth. But understand, so is mine and you trying to tell me other wise is just ludicrous.



BTW, my Goretex XCR is a fantastic jacket!

A lot of back editing going on in your post... You really are in a knot on this arn't you?

In spite of all your experience, you were wrong about the gaiters, you were wrong about the HID/LED, and I'm going to say you are wrong in knowing what works for me during my daily ride, or outdoor activities... Yeah, you really know what you are talking about, just ask yourself.


You, with your vast experience and chest thumping, all the while calling down my stuff to strength your weak position, only shows how small you really are..

Everything is workable, it's all relative...

I suppose everyone that has posted here that they are happy is wrong too, and we should really listen to some raving guy full of himself on the internet telling us what really works?

I edit heavily because I want to make sure what I say sounds correct ( i was an editor once)

Go, gortboy, go.

you'll see the light about Goretex someday. I'm only trying to help those that are not so closed minded. Seems the W.L. Gore company thinks I know what I am talking about.

AND, High powered flashing LED lights STILL give greater distance cognification of bicyclists than HID setups.I see it every night out on my bike commute. (physics based, absolute size of lighthead diminishing over distance, versus the human eye's ability to pick up a flashing light at longer distances...)

I'm happy for you though, viperZ. Although, it sounds like you've never worn a softshell jacket for high output aerobic activities. Do you own a softshell? which ones?

Gore-Tex XCR is NOT the end all, be all fabric for outdoor sports. You KNOW what works best for you but your experiences do not reflect vangaurd thinking on outdoor shell technologies and their performance.

Can you think of any other reason except performance that softshell jackets have been continually lauded in the outdoor industry for the last decade or so? Since its introduction, the Cloudveil Serindepity jacket, made of Schoeller Dryskin, has continually won awards as one of the best outdoor jackets ever made. it's NOT waterproof.


Softshells. Better than GoreTex XCR for outdoor wear. Even Gore Bikewear offers more NON-waterproof jackets than their waterproof versions.

Look at cycling clothing (I currently work at a bike shop.) Non waterproof, more breathable options are what riders are turning to for better performance while riding.

but, hey, hey, all you guys in Goretex XCR sweatboxes, you KNOW what makes a good winter cycling jacket. More power to the greenhorn gorts wearers that carry 8 pound Himalyan expedition tents for beach walks.

I'd listen to your advice about outdoor gear over my advice anyday, viperZ. NOT.

Weak


Who's closed minded? I said there are better fabric I would like to try like a showerpass Event jacket.

Don't be hating on me just because something you don't like or agree with, works for me... Who's the closed minded individual?



You were clearly handed your lunch in that thread, the pictures showed it, people stated it....

Yes I have, and it works great! But I like the packability of a shell much more.

Do you even ride your bike in the winter? Much less try an XCR jacket while riding? I would think not based on your comments, because if you did you may find it works

I have been riding to work every day through spring, summer and winter, It works, as much as you say it doesn't or shouldn't. I attibute this to the material and the design of the garments.

we make fun of Goretex sheathed gorts wearers in this neck of the cascades, viperZ. It's a regional thing.....

great choice of tires, though

Riding in the snow? Yeah, over 20 years.

I've even started doing spring ski trips on bikes now.

Thats cool, I can deal for I'm the only one that has to be happy.

Thanks

το τέλος αυτού

ViperZ has the best photos, and the largest gear allowance of anyone i know
Bekologist has the most real use experiance of outdoor equipment of anyone on these forums that ive read, so although i butt heads with him many times over some things, he has knowledge from use that beats companies marketing claims 100 fold.

I have purposly not mentioned specific companies, to me the discussion is about materials, not the companies using them. Saying TNF Gore jackets work for you in certain conditions and is not relevent to others is true, but in the concept of evaluating materials has little relevance.

There is basically 2 issues
1- Waterproof hardshell, or Softshell.
2- Which material is best in each catagory.

I use both, and the threshold where i move from one to the other is a personal choice that will be different for everyone. Wearing a waterproof breathable like gore, in cold dry climates, may work fine for you, but is not the best material for the application. No one says it wont work, or that it wont work sufficient enough, just that there are many materials that will work a lot better. And no one was asking what is capable, the discussion was what was BEST. Same as a halogen light owner claiming it works fine for them and that a hid light would work no better because you dont know them. it may suit their expectations, but its still an inferior light in regards to performance.

In the case of a waterproof shell, there is no special circumstances that make one material better for one person than another that i can think of. Unless your a corpse there are 2 areas of performance. Waterproofness, and breathabilty. The rest is fashion or functionality/quality of the end manufacturere, but the material requirements are the same. All waterproofs are pretty much 100%, so the only comparable difference is breathability.

I read a jacket review a while back that mentioned that when made out of eVent, if your cycling or working hard in the cold, steam can be observed coming out of the fabric. Not out the neckhole, but actual steam transmitting thru the material. Thats what I call letting sweat out. I doubt gore does the same. Ive noticed it before but never keyed in on it, but its in old forum threads where i talk about riding in pouring rain in january and coming to a stop and a cloud of steam coming off me.

Thats a true test of a materials performance if you dont believe in results from lab tests. Im also not trying to promote 1 material, as there are several WB's much better than gore, and a multitude of softshell materials that outperform it.

edit: found the link
https://www.outdoorsmagic.com/news/ar...N/3906/v/2/sp/
heres another eVent specific, but Toray has some good materials also.
https://www.prolitegear.com/cgi-bin/p.../xdpy/kb/00029

The prolitegear link has a good explaination on why goretex is not the best in cold dry conditions also.

ok, now back to your scheduled arguing