An obscure reference to the size of the board.

It was meant to be funny but clearly failed in its objective. Oh well, can't win 'em all.

Times have changed, last time we bought anything at Cstreet was 1984 and hubby is sure he got more than $100 off rrp back then. Still has the bike and loves it (steel naturally)

is that for Zona? What about Life, etc? Not bad, i s'pose. When I payed $530 for the 531 Raleigh in 1992, custom steel Paconis were $800, and Perkins & Hillmans were $1100!!

I can get a 2nd hand 1850g Paconi/Cecil Walker SLX frame at Bicycle Recycle for $150!!!, and you KNOW i'll be no slower than ALL those tossers on VXRS' wearing SBR tank-tops. What else.......2nd hand 1500g Specialized alu something for $250. My 8.5kg Cinelli Proxima (with no cages and light tyres), with a mix of new and 2nd hand 9 & 10 speed Dura-Ace cost me ~$2700!! It don't not cost not much to be FAST!! All you need is stiff wheels with new hubs and better-than-average tyres.

I had a Ciocc Challenger for about 3 days (Dedacciai Scandium, 57cm, 1214g), with carbon seat-stays, which wasn't really stiff at all, and creaked liked absolute crap!! It even creaked when I was tightening the bottom bracket.

I would go for the custom job. It'll fit all that time perfectly and less chance of a frame failure at an extremely bad time.

Yeah, that's Zona, but if anyone wanted Life, I'd do them a TAT Deal, donchooworrybouthat.

Perkins and Hillmans probably still are 1100. It's currently 1993, right? I hear there's this stuff called titanium and people are riding bikes offroad. Can you believe that!!?! Insanity!

Ask 53.....ahfergeddaboutit.


Seriously though, I'm completely biased so I should STFU. However, stuff wears out and stuff goes out of fashion, and there's absolutely zero resale in 2nd hand bikes, so if you're going to invest bigbucks in the longterm, it pays to get something solid, something timeless, but also something that has some potential for you to grow into and with. It's amazing how many shops/builders/fitters don't even bother to ask that question, which quite frankly scares me.

I worry about the dudes on 'team replica' bikes and consumable carbon jobbies. Today, T-Mobile Giant rider. Tomorrow? You look like a Pantani wannabe on a Mapei Colnago. Have your first decent crash and scratch past the resin outer layer of that carbon frame? Throw it in the bin, or be one of those annoying phonecalls I get every week "Can you fix my carbon frame?".

"If I had 4k to spend on a frame? Titanium.

If I was feeling the cutting edge just wasn't cutting enough? Reynolds 953.

If I was a pure racing idiot that just wanted light and stiff? Scandium.

On a budget and just want something custom, but trusty? Columbus Life."


I think I'll frame that. It's only been about 20000 posts of mostly facile diatribe on TAT and finally we get a true glimpse of what's really going on inside the head of the master framemaker!

While you're on the Central Coast you should also take a look at The Edge Cycles. My Nephew Dean would do you a great deal on Scott, Wheeler, GT or Bianchi. I think I've covered them all. Good honnest no crap dealer. Worth a look. Tell him Berny sent you.
Oh yeah, their ph. no. is 43211566

if you stuck to around $2000, then possibly, but over that, I'd say definitely no.

Just ask Jock about value and race-worthiness -- he races on Asian alu Gitanes, and those frames would cost about 200 bucks!! You can get a new alu Gitane with full Shimano 105 for about $1400, and the group-set alone sells for $1,100!!

"Unfortunately", as the price goes up, the weight often goes down, as does, therefore, the durability... usually. Some of the super-light alu frames cost a bucket, but there's no way a 1200g alu frame will last 10 years if it's ridden 'properly'. Similar with steel (laugh all you want, Tigger ): the lighter steels cost more, but are wafer thin.

Ok, I'm gonna ask some dumb questions....

1. What makes a road feel dead? Got a section on the M2 that consistenly feels like crap.

2. I cant find the balance/co-relation between HR, speed, cadence and pain.
What i'm tryin to say is, sometimes...(on the same ride)
My HR is dropping into 150's but my pain level is high indicating i'm trying hard, but should I push harder to work respiratory system and get HR back up?
My HR is staying high (160/170s) but my legs feel strong, indicating I'm trying hard, but should I push harder to work legs?

The reason I ask is I intend to start training using intervals and trying to work it all out.
Sometimes it feels easy to sustain 170bpm and have strong legs on an undulation, other times it feels hard to sustain 155+ and speed and cadence (whole rythm) gets shot but legs are on fire!
Am I overthinking all this crap and should just ride my bike and smile?

And on the frame debate, I agree with 531, it's not the bike that makes the rider...
I like seeing guys at our club win races on old steel bikes with good wheels.

fwiw, i'd still love that custom Ti with carbon record.
Or even a carbon team bling machine (VXRS etc) but be prepared to throw them away if you ride them hard and have a stack.

Jings there's been a lot of common sense thrown around here in the last 12 hours, must be the infiltration of the newbs . I'm off for a Hoegaarden!
*starts TA'Beer'T again....

HA!! I've noticed this on bike paths and footpaths (hmmm...why is "footpath" is one word but "bike path" aint'?)! I reckon, dozens of times I've ridden off the road and onto an asphalted footpath or bike path and thought my tyres were flat. I figure the surface underneath isn't as compacted as much as a road because it doesn't have to be. So, despite being a few inches of asphalt, i reckon it can be a relatively soft surface.


I'm gunna write a considered, waffley response to this, so stay toooned.

yeah, as long as the frame is tooo heavy. I think my old 531 bikes feel a little slower these days during acceleration, but that could be because they have my crappiest components on them. I had 2 SLX frames years ago which felt sluggish, but I doubt they were really slower on the stopwatch.

Dear Willy

1. the deadness makes a road feel dead. could be a false flat, looks flat but is actually a bit uphill. more likely to be a change in the road surface. bikes roll slower on coarser pavement (eg. peats ridge rd vs ourimbah crit circuit).

2. The dropping HR is something to be experienced. Never had an answer on it, most likely you have a slight tailwind that you can't feel, otherwise you're possibly seeing your heart's adaptation process in action. You won't hurt yourself, and if you keep the pace up it should eventually go back up to expected values.

The high HR when the rest of you feels good is usually a sign that your cardiovascular system needs some recovery time, you haven't had enough sleep, have a little virus, or you've overdone the high intensity stuff. Regardless, you need to drop the intensity back to under ATHR (ie. base) for the rest of the ride.

You say you can't find the balance/co-relation between HR, speed, cadence and pain: that sounds wrong. you've already discovered that balance, and you are reacting to things you are seeing that are outside the known norms. Interpret those signals and take the most appropriate action.

That'll be $250.00 thanks

Sorry Paul,

for a minute there I thought I was Ric (the MIGHTY SPAMMER) Stern.

LOL, Might need to exercise my elbow at the Elly soon to discuss interval training. My shout of course....

Oh, & if you feel like a watch of Overcoming, let me know.

what's the deal there? seems to be a law unto himself

LOL, dont get Jock started its close to bed-time!

Sorry Jocko, looks like I'm gunna say something different.

I've had a HR monitor since 1992, and I've used one on every ride in the last 5 years, even on my commutes, so I've made similar observations a gazillion times.

As long as your fitness level is consistent and you're 'normally' hydrated, these HR flucuations are usaullly an indication of how fresh your legs are. If the HR seems high, relative to perceived effort (when the legs feel good) this is an indication that the legs are fresh and you SHOULD HAMMER!!!! Doesn't it make sense? When the legs feel good, and you're due for a hard day, hammer? When I feel like this I can sustain HRs in the low 190s for over 30mins (my max is about 203), and I'm usually going pretty fast. On crap leg days it's almost impossible for me to exceed 185bpm

The 2nd scenario: on crap days, when you haven't recovered enough, you can feel like you're pounding along, with legs hurting a bit, but the HR is only 150/160!! Therefore, the HR is low, relative to perceived effort. This means your legs probably need a rest. When this happens to me, I either have a "tempo" day, keeping the HR at ~%70, or spin along at %55HR (~110/115), keep the ride short, and save the hard day for the next day or the day after.

hmmmm I need to train with the HR more often and go by feel.
Usually if my legs feel ok, I try and hammer, if my legs dont feel ok I try and hammer.
lol. so much to learn about training.

^^HR is a by-product of the leg's capabilities on the day.


As far as the whole interval thing goes, and the exacting specificity of it all, I'm not totally sold on it (besides, I can't do power/maximum intervals on my own -- too much motivation required. I need to be chasing someone, or preferably several people), in that racing or simulated racing is still way better than doing intevals on your own.. There are many instances of pros who do no specific work; they just race their arse off for a few months, then go to a track meet and win some pursuit medal. LeMond did something like that when he was young (I'll track down what it was), and how about McGee going to Atlanta a few days after the Tour and winning a sliver in the pursuit?!!!

I not gunna poo-poo the importance of precise intervals, but to keep it simple, I reckon the hard days should be really hard (and kinda long), and the easy days really easy. I can do no more than 3 hard days a week, and often, it's more like 5 a fortnight.

As far as your interval HR goes, do you know your max? In one of Carmichael's books he describes the power intervals as three minutes in zone 5 (86+% of max). So, depending on your max, 170 might be a bit low for an interval.

Need to do another test but last time I tried to max out on the trainer I hit 190ish from memory.
My resting HR is ~44. I also got low BP, can be good fun falling over when you really want to stand up

If I do the same route 3-4 times a week, maybe I just try and hammer 1 of them.
I did a race simulation on my own last year and had avg HR ~165, raced that weekend and avg HR was 175. In simu it felt like I was pushing as hard as I could...looks like I need a rabbit too!

There you go! I reckon none of us can push ourselves close enough to max on our own. A few weeks ago on one of our 'fastish' group rides, I was chasing a guy who shot off the front of the bunch, and my HR was 193/194/195 for nearly 10 minutes!! I could not do that on my own in a million years!!

Yup, I get to the high 170's on my own and 190 in a crit sprint.

Damn Time Trialers