fstrnu

You mean dumb trainer?

gregf83 

I think everyone understands the value of intervals. Not sure why you think mixing systems in a workout is an issue? It's not difficult to incorporate multiple types of intervals in a longer training session. Perhaps if you've only got 30-40 min to workout indoors then fine but if you're going out for a long ride it's common to mix it up a little more. After all you don't get to race using only one system.

WhyFi

Yup. Now what?

redlude97

Are you basing all this on Zwift? Because what I've seen from TR and Xert etc are primarily interval repeats in their workouts. You've also not shown any evidence that basic intervals repeats produce better results, or how to build an overall yearly plan on your own that would be better than a prescribed plan

fstrnu

Mixing systems in a single workout complicates things. It muddies the waters and can also be counterproductive especially when arbitrary. Repeats are easier to understand, progress, monitor and adjust. For example, I can more easily diagnose and resolve a problem associated with my power profile above threshold if I am doing dedicated VO2 repeats while I might have no idea what's going on if I'm following a multi-system workout involving tempo, SST, LT and VO2 and some workouts also have varying %FTP within these systems. A scientific approach requires control variables.

Occasional simulation is fine but should be performed at your own risk / opportunity cost.

fstrnu

Perform interval repeats.

fstrnu

Not just Zwift. I don't use Xert. I believe there is a lot more research on repeats than multi-system workouts but I could be wrong. The point, however, is how effective an approach is for the individual athlete. There's no doubt in my mind that athletes will get better results from a personalized, monitored and adjusted interval repeat approach than from a generic multi system approach.

WhyFi

Elaborate. I'm lost.

fstrnu

https://www.amazon.com/Cyclists-Trai.../dp/1937715825

WhyFi

I ain't got time to read.

fstrnu

Do you have on-the-bike power?

WhyFi

Yup.

rubiksoval

So how many athletes have you coached with/instructed to use this personalized, monitored, and adjusted interval repeat approach?

Bonus points if these athletes previously used a "generic multi-system approach" (wtf is that, anyway?) with which we can compare results.

rubiksoval

The term "intervals" was initially used to describe the rest interval in between efforts of higher intensity.

Your continued use of the phrase "interval repeats" is akin to saying "rest repeats". It's very strange. Why don't you just say an "interval workout" or "repeats"? You know, something that actually makes sense?

rubiksoval

I'm still waiting for you to show that YOU actually understand training. So far you've done NOTHING to illustrate that.

For 15 years you've been on this forum and all you've done in a decade and a half is tell people to read Joe Friel's book and complain about indoor training (though you're a fan of the archaic computrainer?!).

You actually posted this in 2003?!
The fastest way to get faster is to read a book? And now it's to eschew premade training plans altogether?

I'm just...wow.

gregf83 

Here's a simple suggestion: Start with a plan, measure progress once a month, adjust as necessary. If workouts seem too easy, raise target power for the session. If workouts can't be completed, lower target power for the session. Rinse and repeat. Riders who train indoors have reported good progress with trainerroad programs.

For reasonably experienced cyclists adaptations don't occur in the short term. Measuring performance on a monthly basis should be sufficient to track progress.

fstrnu

Perform interval repeats.

fstrnu

I'd argue that the onus is on multi system workouts since there's plenty of research on interval repeats. The term interval repeats is for new cyclists to help them know that repeats are related to interval training. The new vernacular is to use the term interval to refer to work intervals. We're getting quick picky now which is a good sign.

fstrnu

I'm not convinced one can know that a mixed workout is too easy until it's done. Even the first few intervals of an interval repeat workout might seem easy. However, I do advocate RPE/HR sanity checks for certain types of interval repeat workouts with caveats.

What I encourage more strongly, however, is to note the overall workout perceived effort such as that the workout was challenging but you had something left in the tank to avoid excess recovery time.

Then you can adjust the next interval repeat session accordingly which is easy to do because of the simple structure. No one is going to adjust an arbitrary mixed workout. They just move on to the next potentially failed workout. Interval repeat workouts just become more and more effective as you constantly tune them and the recovery between them.

One of my favorite things about interval repeats is that you perform them in manual ERG mode and can add/extend/split intervals as needed so you can save the quality of your workout.

Edit - And I agree about needing a starter plan as I addressed in OP. But that plan needs to be based on interval repeats (plus 1 x ~70% + TV for long endurance rides). I have several starter plans and it's also easy to convert mixed workout plans to interval repeat plans.

WhyFi

Elaborate. I thought that this was supposed to be an easier, free alternative? Let's get it going.

fstrnu

WhyFi

This is gibberish - certainly not intuitive. I need to get in a workout - what am doing?

So far, I don't think that TrainerRoad has reason to be shaking in their boots.

DrIsotope

I'm thankful I'm not the only one that has no idea what those charts mean. Where's the key to unlock them? Also, looks like math, so dealbreaker.

fstrnu

Chart Legend:

3 x 10 / 3 = 3 x 10 minute intervals with 3 minute recovery intervals
VO2 = 105%
40/20 = 110%
For 40/20, 3 x 10 / 3 = 3 x 10 x (40/20) / 3
Rows = Weeks
Columns = Session

Examples of Initial Guidance:

Intro...

Structured training is about time at intensity.
Interval repeats = Time at intensity and are the most direct, effective and accessible way to approach training without a human coach.
Manual ERG mode workouts are convenient and versatile ; allowing you to add/extend/split/combine/pyramid intervals.
The Wahoo Fitness App is reliable, free and accurately records/exports data in any format you need.
Golden Cheetah is a free app that you can use to analyze your data when you are ready.

Regarding the plans...

Add rest and test weeks as needed.
If you are off the couch, start with first row.
Otherwise, start at row which best matches where you currently are with your fitness.
Workouts should be challenging but you should have something left in the tank to avoid excess recovery time.
If overall workout is too easy but intensity appears to be okay per RPE/HR zone sanity check then consider whether to skip a week in the progression.
If overall workout is too difficult but intensity appears to be okay per RPE/HR zone sanity check then consider (1) potential impact of fatigue (see below) including possibility that you overdid it during previous workout and (2) whether to skip backward one or more weeks in the progression.
Monitor resting heart rate, work interval heart rate, perceived effort, stress, sleep quality, energy, appetite, mood and motivation to keep tabs on fatigue.

Examples of Topics for Optional / Extra Credit / Advanced / Nuanced Guidance:
How to convert plans with multi-zone workouts
Adding/extending/splitting intervals in real time to maintain quality
Using average work interval heart rate and cardiac drift as indicators of fitness, fatigue and endurance
Training log analysis
Combo workouts
Pyramid workouts

rubiksoval

Nah, not picky. Just another item in a long list that you can't explain. Like I said, it makes no sense because you're combining two different terms. At best it's redundant, but in actuality it's conflicting.

No one's on board with this. You're just rambling. Theres zero credibility here, and there's a startling lack of knowledge and communication ability.

You mentioned Hunter Allen previously. Go read about the kitchen sink workout.